Poor head quality
- Thread starter Stephenbuck2489
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Loki
Well-Known Member
Hi
As Zio65 suggests the 'gene pool', though 1k acres, closed off to external access for new genes, is likely, all else being good or better (food sources, shelter etc), to have an impact.
Looking at Red Deer populations - new genes have been imported around Europe to improve the Herd.
A J De Nahlik explains much in his book.
L
As Zio65 suggests the 'gene pool', though 1k acres, closed off to external access for new genes, is likely, all else being good or better (food sources, shelter etc), to have an impact.
Looking at Red Deer populations - new genes have been imported around Europe to improve the Herd.
A J De Nahlik explains much in his book.
L
sikamalc
Administrator
It will always be genetics first. A good Roe buck will always be a good Roe buck, and within 3 or 4 years will attain a medal.
What many do not appreciate is that Roe were wiped out in many places many years back, and were then re introduced. In a small fenced area of 1000 acres, which I assume they cannot get out of, they will never produce a good head, as the same bucks will breed again and again. Food does play a part in their development. But at days end if you have an area that has poor quality heads, it is likely to remain that way.
One only has to look at where a great many big heads are taken. The south coast of the UK being a prime example. Sussex, Hampshire, Wiltshire, Dorset being areas renowned for good heads.
What many do not appreciate is that Roe were wiped out in many places many years back, and were then re introduced. In a small fenced area of 1000 acres, which I assume they cannot get out of, they will never produce a good head, as the same bucks will breed again and again. Food does play a part in their development. But at days end if you have an area that has poor quality heads, it is likely to remain that way.
One only has to look at where a great many big heads are taken. The south coast of the UK being a prime example. Sussex, Hampshire, Wiltshire, Dorset being areas renowned for good heads.
Sorry. Should have stated, ground has no public access, but deer can cross boundaries no problem.
I think there’s a big difference between ‘not growing a medal head’ and ‘never seeing anything but single point bucks’.
The OP describes a population where he never sees anything but spikers - no (or very few) multi point animals.
That is unusual - even in areas with poor food AND poor genetics, bucks will still develop multi point heads, albeit more slowly and never reaching particularly impressive sizes. If there are extended periods of extreme inbreeding, they will start to look quite odd - but that can take years. And roe can usually find a way through a fence in 5-8 years.
So the explanation is unlikely to be either primarily genetic or food. If there really are a lack of multi point animals, that’s most likely an age structure effect: there simply aren’t any (or many) animals old enough to have developed multi point heads.
There are then a couple explanations. One is that someone is shooting them, and taking out the multi point animals. The other is that the population is young - perhaps the fence was put up or repaired in the last 2-3 years, trapping a few animals, and what’s visible now have mainly been born since the population was isolated.
The OP describes a population where he never sees anything but spikers - no (or very few) multi point animals.
That is unusual - even in areas with poor food AND poor genetics, bucks will still develop multi point heads, albeit more slowly and never reaching particularly impressive sizes. If there are extended periods of extreme inbreeding, they will start to look quite odd - but that can take years. And roe can usually find a way through a fence in 5-8 years.
So the explanation is unlikely to be either primarily genetic or food. If there really are a lack of multi point animals, that’s most likely an age structure effect: there simply aren’t any (or many) animals old enough to have developed multi point heads.
There are then a couple explanations. One is that someone is shooting them, and taking out the multi point animals. The other is that the population is young - perhaps the fence was put up or repaired in the last 2-3 years, trapping a few animals, and what’s visible now have mainly been born since the population was isolated.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Another factor is probably at play. Given the site has no shooting over it, the population of Deer is probably quite high. And at 1,000 ha it’s probably large enough the there are plenty of roe deer terratories with it, and only a little migration into neighbouring areas. On one side I think there is a dual carriageway and a nuclear power station, so any migration is on the the far side and that’s open moorland (I think). So it’s a pretty closed population.
If it is overpopulated, none of the deer will be getting a decent level of nutrition. Even if there is enough, deer will be constantly pushing other deer of terratories. Chances are most of the deer will be quite small, and will not be growing decent antlers.
And one final point, the big bucks keep themselves to themselves and generally only come out at first and last light, so won’t be seen regularly. Old bucks get old by being very cautious.
If it is overpopulated, none of the deer will be getting a decent level of nutrition. Even if there is enough, deer will be constantly pushing other deer of terratories. Chances are most of the deer will be quite small, and will not be growing decent antlers.
And one final point, the big bucks keep themselves to themselves and generally only come out at first and last light, so won’t be seen regularly. Old bucks get old by being very cautious.
south-nofolk-stalker
Well-Known Member
Genetics and ground minerals play a massive part of roe buck quality, in Norfolk we have excellent food for the bucks but crap genetics hence you don’t get the quality.
In Aberdeenshire for example you have crap food quality but excellent genetics and ground minerals and that is why you consistently find gold medal box in that area of the uk
In Aberdeenshire for example you have crap food quality but excellent genetics and ground minerals and that is why you consistently find gold medal box in that area of the uk
I shoot on a small farm in North Fife (in an area that generally produces good heads). On it, there’s a 17 acre wood. Felled in 2013. Fenced immediately after felling - with good 2.5m deer fencing. 8 roe fenced in, and there have been roe there ever since. Heads are still every bit as good as they were before the fence went up. I shoot 1-2 a year from it. Solid 6 point bucks every time.
I worked on two Cotswold estates, one of which Roe were released on in the late 60's. I only ever saw a couple of high medal quality on either estate. Now the same Roe on one estate between the two were very high quality head wise and the only difference was that this place occupied a long steep valley. It was fact that it was difficult to shoot a poor head there with silver and gold medals a regular occurrence.
To me the farming on both places produced similar crops so there must have been some extra bone building elements in the soil. All the deer were from the same genetic line so in my opinion the soil and minerals in it were the influencing factor for good heads.
To me the farming on both places produced similar crops so there must have been some extra bone building elements in the soil. All the deer were from the same genetic line so in my opinion the soil and minerals in it were the influencing factor for good heads.
gelert
Well-Known Member
It's interesting the regional difference across the country.
I've stalked the same ground in Dumfries for nearly 8 years with plenty of food source,but nothing with a real high value. A look at the 2023 CIC Roe rankings for Scotland shows 500+ medal heads and 5 made medal from Dumfries.
Loads of 6 pointers nearer Edinburgh. Half the bucks I see have 6 points. Took one this evening, and another a week ago in a pair of bucks was a 6 pointer - the other was young, still in velvet, developing 4 - they were feeding on beans newly planted, hence got nipped. The area is over-populated with deer. Will post pics of the heads when I find where I left my phone.
The area from Torness to Dunbar moor seems to attract a lot of poachers/unauthorised shooters, and lamping is problem right up to the Edinburgh bypass. That is likely the reason you are not seeing any decent bucks as Mungo suggested.
The area from Torness to Dunbar moor seems to attract a lot of poachers/unauthorised shooters, and lamping is problem right up to the Edinburgh bypass. That is likely the reason you are not seeing any decent bucks as Mungo suggested.
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Ive had a few silver medals in my time, DEFINITELY a few brass medals but yet to find that gold medal worthy headDisappointing thread…….. thought it was going to discuss the merits of wives and girl friends past and present
As promised, pics of two of the deer taken from South and West Edinburgh area in the past week, and another from not far down the road last year, illustrating the heads that abound. Not gold medals, because those get offered to people who pay for stalking, but not that bad either.
David Barker
Well-Known Member
What we see as good quality feeding and what a roe deer sees as good quality feeding are to different thing,s. I have areas of many thousands of acres were there is literally no crop no silage and nothing of note except reed,s.. I have taken many on to this ground and with comments like there be no deer here and only to be shown many deer and shooting many with good medal head.s. Genes first from a good buck sharing his sperm with many females. Some of them females of equal quality and there fore throwing off good twins or triplets. Then them holding good territory,s of quality feed there choice. Good competition to keep them fighting fit and there testosterone levels high.
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baguio
Well-Known Member
Certainly had potential if they had been allowed to reach it. Certainly better genes than down my way.
At the poor end, if uncontrolled / unauthorised shooting is permitted, such as around Torness, all the decent bucks are poached, so one gets left with those that either produce poor heads or are really shy. Just like elephants: big tuskers were killed so majority now have small tusks.
In the middle, bucks that develop a taste for farm crops in daylight hours, die early, as do bucks that cross roads frequently. In each case, regardless of what head they have, they end up prematurely dead.
At the top end, there are some excellent bucks in fields that I leave alone purely because their genes look good, so when there are X does + 1 buck on the plan for a group of fields, then that buck will be a good one. It doesn't get shot until it is old, it eats well on the farmer's best crops, it has a few does without needing to waste energy fighting because the competition has been removed, it reproduces. Estates do similarly.
I have put x5 - x50 and x6 - x60 March scopes on my rifles, so I can take a good look at the animal close up before pulling the trigger, so the buck chomping on beans can be graded either as one with the best genes, or one to knock out of the pool. The quality of high end scope optics is orders of magnitude better than my normal binos or digital binos.
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Devon Stalker
Well-Known Member
For all those that say food is the most important thing how come the bucks in the east are rubbish. I guess it's that rubbish food and poor weather
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