I agree but I am waiting with bated breath for the BASC announcement - how will they disguise this 'u' turn ? Greta may have joined?
Potential lead ban?
- Thread starter wildfowler.250
- Start date
pj1
Well-Known Member
As a pest controller this really worries me. If it is a blanket ban I can say goodbye to the rifles I use the most. Air rifle, 22lr and 22 hornet. The swede I can go non toxic on and don’t mind that at all but I’m now also getting into target shooting and will this also come under a lead ban.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
I note that the CPSA member benefit (£72 under 60 years of age; £62 over 60 years of age) includes all lawful shooting with shotguns including live quarry such as game and pest control.
I have just now visited the CPSA (Clay Pigeon Shooting Association) website and used their online enquiry facility to send them this message:
I will post their reply on SD when I have it.
I have just now visited the CPSA (Clay Pigeon Shooting Association) website and used their online enquiry facility to send them this message:
I will post their reply on SD when I have it.
Disgrace - "no sound evidence - no change" yesterday - today sound evidence ?
Its probably to forestall a total ban because some (they have said in the past) game shooters have been accused of shooting with lead at ducks (due to a flawed survey)
Money talks - obligation/conscience walks.
I told you so .................I reckon its 100% cave-in so far in the last 3 announcements.
Next will be the GL again and the Env. impact Assessment for the release of gamebirds both WJ inspired.
Is BASC worth the money ......................................................? I've made my judgement.
Its probably to forestall a total ban because some (they have said in the past) game shooters have been accused of shooting with lead at ducks (due to a flawed survey)
Money talks - obligation/conscience walks.
I told you so .................I reckon its 100% cave-in so far in the last 3 announcements.
Next will be the GL again and the Env. impact Assessment for the release of gamebirds both WJ inspired.
Is BASC worth the money ......................................................? I've made my judgement.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
I hope that it's an internet hoax. Truly I do. But if not then as I've posted I hope we can see a way forward via joining the CPSA.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
The CPSA website now says this:
I have spoken to them and they have said that they will raise the matter at their CEO level.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Oh! CPSA now says this as at 12.30pm on 24 Feb.:
Whereas earlier it was this:
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I can only speak from my own experience.
1) Rifles - monolithic bullets have been around for a while. They hold together very well and get good pentration. Challenge has been getting them to work on smaller lighter game such as Roe and other deer. I have used the 7mm Fox 130 gn bullet quite a bit and enough to say that it works extremely well. And with less mess on the carcess than most lead core bullets that I have used.
2) Rifles - tin core bullets - in effect a traditional style bullet but using tin instead of lead. RWS do this in their HIT bullet and i have used in 7x65r. No difference to a normal bullet. And it does cause lots of internal damage causing a quick kill. But is also fragmenting.
The beauty of a monolithic is that it stays in one piece so you don’t get lots of fragments through the meat.
3) Shotguns. The early non-toxic cartridges were utterly useless and I went through a period of not being able to kill ducks and geese cleanly. It was nt my shooting cos if i switched to lead they dropped dead, back non toxic they would be crippled. Lots of others I know suffered similar.
However the latest generation of steel cartridges seem to work well enough. I have been using them out of Franchi Affinity and ducks just seem to fall dead. I am using a 3” higher velocity load though.
would i put these anywhere near my nice old guns - definately not. But i did have a number 3 Magnum with opened chokes that i did shoot steel through with no obvious ill effects.
what irritates me about steel cartridges is that most use a plastic wad. However that seems to be changing, and with some form of thick fibre cup would probably be ok in an older gun with more open chokes. You won’t have the number of pellets of a conventional 12 - killing power more akin to say an old 3/4 or 7/8 oz 20 bore load. Not a high phaesant load, but good enough for closer range perhaps???
1) Rifles - monolithic bullets have been around for a while. They hold together very well and get good pentration. Challenge has been getting them to work on smaller lighter game such as Roe and other deer. I have used the 7mm Fox 130 gn bullet quite a bit and enough to say that it works extremely well. And with less mess on the carcess than most lead core bullets that I have used.
2) Rifles - tin core bullets - in effect a traditional style bullet but using tin instead of lead. RWS do this in their HIT bullet and i have used in 7x65r. No difference to a normal bullet. And it does cause lots of internal damage causing a quick kill. But is also fragmenting.
The beauty of a monolithic is that it stays in one piece so you don’t get lots of fragments through the meat.
3) Shotguns. The early non-toxic cartridges were utterly useless and I went through a period of not being able to kill ducks and geese cleanly. It was nt my shooting cos if i switched to lead they dropped dead, back non toxic they would be crippled. Lots of others I know suffered similar.
However the latest generation of steel cartridges seem to work well enough. I have been using them out of Franchi Affinity and ducks just seem to fall dead. I am using a 3” higher velocity load though.
would i put these anywhere near my nice old guns - definately not. But i did have a number 3 Magnum with opened chokes that i did shoot steel through with no obvious ill effects.
what irritates me about steel cartridges is that most use a plastic wad. However that seems to be changing, and with some form of thick fibre cup would probably be ok in an older gun with more open chokes. You won’t have the number of pellets of a conventional 12 - killing power more akin to say an old 3/4 or 7/8 oz 20 bore load. Not a high phaesant load, but good enough for closer range perhaps???
Benelli m2
Well-Known Member
Looks like a ban in around 5years what the hell are we going to do with all the shotguns that are not proofed for steel shot
Hold onto them when they reverse the decision 5 years later...
Another win for BASC et al then.
They will be painstakingly monitoring the reaction to this on such sites and so far as I can see they will be feeling OK. Pigeon watch runs to 9 pages.
I will say this once only.
Unless you resign from BASC et al, you will continue to be told what to do - for some reason that you will not be entitled to know.
You will continue to foster a big brother approach to shooting - Medicals, QC's advice , full volte face about lead. No discussion, no consultation, no apparent concern over 'best old guns', no concern whatsoever that of the 2 ish million shooters, BASC et al represent no more than 250K.
If the team doesn't win, change the team - only all of them have failed, I urge all of you to consider what your support is doing to our pursuits, whatever your best if intentions.
This doesnt affect medicals but will, in the longer run be individually more expensive, good luck to the next generation who might have wanted to shoot.
Since most are swallowing this whole, I'm out.
They will be painstakingly monitoring the reaction to this on such sites and so far as I can see they will be feeling OK. Pigeon watch runs to 9 pages.
I will say this once only.
Unless you resign from BASC et al, you will continue to be told what to do - for some reason that you will not be entitled to know.
You will continue to foster a big brother approach to shooting - Medicals, QC's advice , full volte face about lead. No discussion, no consultation, no apparent concern over 'best old guns', no concern whatsoever that of the 2 ish million shooters, BASC et al represent no more than 250K.
If the team doesn't win, change the team - only all of them have failed, I urge all of you to consider what your support is doing to our pursuits, whatever your best if intentions.
This doesnt affect medicals but will, in the longer run be individually more expensive, good luck to the next generation who might have wanted to shoot.
Since most are swallowing this whole, I'm out.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
I have written this to the Shooting Gazette.
Dear Editor,
As a student of International History and Politics at Leeds University back in the late 1970s I was taught many things. One was the classic propaganda technique of the small truth and the big lie.
That is you tell a small truth and follow it with a big lie. People know that the truth is true....you can prove it...so what follows that is also said must also be true.
Reading today's statement on the BASC website and their FAQs reminded me of those West Yorkshire days. All the elements were there. That "small truth" not once but three times in fact. To support the big lie that it is necessary to end the use of lead on all shoots, by all shooters and for all quarry species edible and non edible.
Here:
1) Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead free game into Europe, or by UK legislation.
And
2) Concerns around the use of lead shot limit the current market for game products, and retailers are increasingly asking for game that has been shot with non-lead alternatives.
Then
3) Additionally, lead has been progressively removed from other substances, such as petrol and paint.
All true to a great or lesser extent and yet all do not make true the "big lie" that lead shot as a means to kill live quarry must fall.
1) Nobody knows what trade deal we will get post-Brexit. Boris Johnson doesn't. Michael Gove doesn't. Yet apparently BASC does? The EU may ban all British poultry and game regardless of if it has been shot with lead or non-lead so unless there is a crystal ball at Marford Mill it is speculation and navel gazing.
And in any case this is disingenuous. For if the EU can have a ban on USA chlorine washed chicken yet at the same time allow access to the EU to US non-chlorine washed chicken then this is clear that any such EU ban might not be a blanket ban at all UK game but just a ban on UK game shot with lead.
2) Surely it is for the individual shoot to decide if it wants to limit its outlets its surplus shot game and for it to continue to use lead if it does not mind that or as many do share it all with no surplus to sell between guns, beaters and pickers up?
Not all edible game is sold to retailers and yet why should those many shoots were it is not be then subject to these restrictions on using lead shot? Just as it is for the individual game dealer to decide whether he or she wishes to take such product or not take such product?
3) Paint and petrol. And a so the ban on lead in cartridges is justified? BASC shame on you! And those other organisations that have clung to its coat tails. Doctor Goebbels would truly have been proud of this...the classic small truth and big lie! Lead in paint and petrol is harmful yes. So therefore we must ban lead in shot gun cartridges?
Lead in petrol is air borne as I think a vapour or a gas containing microscopic particles that could be and were inhaled. I do not know the physics nor the chemistry of it but I do know that what comes out car exhaust pipe is not at all remotely the the same as a the two hundred and seventy small round balls of solid metal in an ounce load of English number six.
And finally for nearly five years from 2015 to 2019 I both worked and lived in France. Where as we all know the game dealers of Europe were always calling out for oven ready crows, jays and magpies to sell to customers to eat. And yet the the announcement today call on an end to lead shot for such corvids, and for squirrels and fors foxes?
It is utter and total cant.
Dear Editor,
As a student of International History and Politics at Leeds University back in the late 1970s I was taught many things. One was the classic propaganda technique of the small truth and the big lie.
That is you tell a small truth and follow it with a big lie. People know that the truth is true....you can prove it...so what follows that is also said must also be true.
Reading today's statement on the BASC website and their FAQs reminded me of those West Yorkshire days. All the elements were there. That "small truth" not once but three times in fact. To support the big lie that it is necessary to end the use of lead on all shoots, by all shooters and for all quarry species edible and non edible.
Here:
1) Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead free game into Europe, or by UK legislation.
And
2) Concerns around the use of lead shot limit the current market for game products, and retailers are increasingly asking for game that has been shot with non-lead alternatives.
Then
3) Additionally, lead has been progressively removed from other substances, such as petrol and paint.
All true to a great or lesser extent and yet all do not make true the "big lie" that lead shot as a means to kill live quarry must fall.
1) Nobody knows what trade deal we will get post-Brexit. Boris Johnson doesn't. Michael Gove doesn't. Yet apparently BASC does? The EU may ban all British poultry and game regardless of if it has been shot with lead or non-lead so unless there is a crystal ball at Marford Mill it is speculation and navel gazing.
And in any case this is disingenuous. For if the EU can have a ban on USA chlorine washed chicken yet at the same time allow access to the EU to US non-chlorine washed chicken then this is clear that any such EU ban might not be a blanket ban at all UK game but just a ban on UK game shot with lead.
2) Surely it is for the individual shoot to decide if it wants to limit its outlets its surplus shot game and for it to continue to use lead if it does not mind that or as many do share it all with no surplus to sell between guns, beaters and pickers up?
Not all edible game is sold to retailers and yet why should those many shoots were it is not be then subject to these restrictions on using lead shot? Just as it is for the individual game dealer to decide whether he or she wishes to take such product or not take such product?
3) Paint and petrol. And a so the ban on lead in cartridges is justified? BASC shame on you! And those other organisations that have clung to its coat tails. Doctor Goebbels would truly have been proud of this...the classic small truth and big lie! Lead in paint and petrol is harmful yes. So therefore we must ban lead in shot gun cartridges?
Lead in petrol is air borne as I think a vapour or a gas containing microscopic particles that could be and were inhaled. I do not know the physics nor the chemistry of it but I do know that what comes out car exhaust pipe is not at all remotely the the same as a the two hundred and seventy small round balls of solid metal in an ounce load of English number six.
And finally for nearly five years from 2015 to 2019 I both worked and lived in France. Where as we all know the game dealers of Europe were always calling out for oven ready crows, jays and magpies to sell to customers to eat. And yet the the announcement today call on an end to lead shot for such corvids, and for squirrels and fors foxes?
It is utter and total cant.
I note that the CPSA member benefit (£72 under 60 years of age; £62 over 60 years of age) includes all lawful shooting with shotguns including live quarry such as game and pest control.
I have just now visited the CPSA (Clay Pigeon Shooting Association) website and used their online enquiry facility to send them this message:
I will post their reply on SD when I have it.
Please do as I will be looking to an alternative to the BASC membership I currently hold.
We have been thrown under a bus
Your response completely ignores vermin and fox shooting with lead free bullets, violently fragmenting bullets with a decent BC are important for achieving humane kills and also reduce risk of pass through or ricochet.
Having used lead free varmint bullets they are crap and have a much lower BC than their equivalent (in length) jacketed lead counterparts.
Then there’s target shooting, monolithic bullets are banned from some ranges and again lead free bullets have a shite bc compared to proper bullets, how long until jacketed and lead bullets are banned?
Also what do you propose for subsonic .22 ammunition which probably takes more quarry than all of the rifle calibres put together. 40-42 grains of copper and tin will be too long to stabilise in ALL current .22 rifles at subsonic speeds and will increase ricochet risk tenfold.
We are being thrown under a bus by the very organisations that are supposed to be looking after our interests as shooters
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@kes I have to eat humble pie and apologise for accusing you of BASC bashing, your were right all along.
@David BASC I will be cancelling and urging others I have brought to the BASC recently (3 new shooters in the last 6 months) to do the same. Utter betrayal
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I am sad that it has come to this, I had hoped secretly that I was wrong and we could move forward with a lot of change.
BASC have thrown away all that shooters have offered them.
Those who dont have a connection to BASC and all the other orgs, can and should walk, as there is no other weapon available to make them listen. For what its worth I dont think, in their present form, they will ever listen or should therefore survive.
My last post untilwe get JR advice.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
as i said at the beginning of my post its in my experience. I have shot a few foxes with lead free bullets - they all have died on the spot. As for pass throughs and ricochets, if you are relying on massive fragmentation to ensure safety rather than a proper backdrop you should nt be using a rifle.
as for target shooting. Well i do little, but any range that would n’t allow non toxic if lead was banned, would nt be is business very long.
as for BC - provided you know the BC and velocities you can work out the drops. Most of the ranges such as Bisley or Wimbledon date back to Victorian era with Muzzle Loading Enfields and very high peep sites and were shooting right to 1,000 yds plus.
Agree there is more of an issue with lead shot in old shotguns, but with decent wads this is sortable.
The short answer - no,
I've cancelled my NGO membership and will be freelance after this - i stand a better chance of achieving what I want on my own and with some interested others - I.E. JR review.
We need to replace them (current Orgs) with a single unified voice which actually does what the majority of shooters want or explains why not.
The current 'Ladies' were for turning - with sincere apologies to MT.
Typical post of someone who only understands their branch of shooting sports.
Nobody relies on fragmentation however it gives an added layer of safety. It also ensures maximum energy dump into the animal.
Your comment on BC again belies your lack of knowledge, gravity is a constant so drop is predictable and repeatable. Wind on the other hand is the killer for longer ranges whether that’s vermin or targets, here BC combined with velocity make a huge difference. Plus if you get it a little wrong a fragmenting bullet that dumps all of its energy in the animal will give you more margin for error.
So what if you’ve shot a few foxes with deer bullets, you still Don’t have a grasp of what dedicated foxers do.
And then there’s the .22 subs issue, and air rifle pellets for that matter, there are not really any non lead alternatives for those and accuracy for those available is poor. This is further reaching than most people seem to give it credit for.
As for ranges Bisley, you know, that small range in the southeast that not many people use? Does not allow monolithic bullets for safety reasons so the switch would mean changing backstop arrangements and also probably prevent the use of HME rifles at all.
You really don’t have a clue.
Still
“I’m alright jack, pull the ladder up”
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