Potential permission / potential vegan objection!

[dickmills]

This post is not an invitation to have a dig at peoples’ beliefs, I am looking for some genuine advice please.
I am very new to stalking, and its very early days. But happened to be talking to a friend whose family have some land. Short version is sold off a farmhouse, kept some paddacks, woodland, barn etc.
I also know his dad & they are very nice helpful folk. I was asking if they had anyone manage their deer & he said they don’t, and he would potentially be ok with giving me permission on the land. However, he is a vegetarian & his wife is a vegan/veggie (not sure which) & when she found out a family friend was shooting rabbits up there she kicked off enough that they asked him to stop, so she would likely have serious objections to stalking there.
I was wondering if anyone had a similar experience & what the outcome was, how to appropriately present the benefits of deer management to someone who may not want to hear it, which points to make, and how our views may be mutually beneficial rather than clash.
I know his parents are meat eaters, former farmers and I think its them who own the land but as I am essentially asking for something from them and offering a service in return which may cause an issue in the family, I don’t want to put them in a difficult spot without preempting it with his wife first??!!
Sorry its a long post, but does anyone have anything constructive to add that may help?
Many thanks

 

[63]

If they’re a ‘don’t eat meat because bunnies are cute’ type of vegan you are probably on a hiding to nothing. If their veganism is founded in beliefs about human health, environmental impact or concerns about how farmed meat is raised, you might be able to build a case around ideas that Hunted wild meat is more ethical and lower impact than farmed meat, and maybe that as a hunter you’re morally more morally consistent and have more integrity than people who just eat chicken nuggets. As I’ve posted elsewhere I have a brother in law who eats an almost exclusively vegan diet for the latter reasons, but is enthusiastic about the occasional bit of venison or high quality meat of known provenance.

There’s a lot to be said for listening and being sympathetic - if they’re particularly polarised and unused to dealing with people in field sports their assumption will be that you’re a bloodthirsty bigoted lunatic. Just showing you’re not (I assume) will go some way to shattering their expectations. Everyone likes to be listened to, taken seriously and be treated with respect.

Unless there is a pressing need for the deer to be managed though, you might find that this is all a bit of a long shot.

Aside from that, be diplomatic, don’t push too hard, (but don’t be too soft) deflect/turn rather than confront and all the usual ‘sales’ techniques for convincing people to agree with you.

 

[Oldstalker]

Post #2 is absolutely on the mark. I believe it to be both good and true.

I have a niece, a member of the UN Sec Gen's Climate Advisory Panel who is vegetarian but she eats game on the grounds it has had a natural life and if harvested should be used; very rational. Equally I remember one of the best Natural England reserve wardens I encountered in the S Lakes, when I lived and worked there, who was vegetarian but actively stalked deer on the grounds they needed active management and he was a reasonable shot to perform the task humanely. Again he was adamant the product should enter the food chain and be used. [Not long after we first met I told him the problem is that because he is so good he would probably be promoted out of area and the loss would be ours.] Such folk are not that rare.

It is the (frequently wilfully ignorant) mentality which is so hard if not impossible to argue against because that frame of mindset is closed to logical and rational argument.

It is a mark of wisdom to be able to distinguish the difference between these two categories. I wish I had it.

 

[JMikeyH]

If they’re a ‘don’t eat meat because bunnies are cute’ type of vegan you are probably on a hiding to nothing. If their veganism is founded in beliefs about human health, environmental impact or concerns about how farmed meat is raised, you might be able to build a case around ideas that Hunted wild meat is more ethical and lower impact than farmed meat, and maybe that as a hunter you’re morally more morally consistent and have more integrity than people who just eat chicken nuggets. As I’ve posted elsewhere I have a brother in law who eats an almost exclusively vegan diet for the latter reasons, but is enthusiastic about the occasional bit of venison or high quality meat of known provenance.

There’s a lot to be said for listening and being sympathetic - if they’re particularly polarised and unused to dealing with people in field sports their assumption will be that you’re a bloodthirsty bigoted lunatic. Just showing you’re not (I assume) will go some way to shattering their expectations. Everyone likes to be listened to, taken seriously and be treated with respect.

Unless there is a pressing need for the deer to be managed though, you might find that this is all a bit of a long shot.

Aside from that, be diplomatic, don’t push too hard, (but don’t be too soft) deflect/turn rather than confront and all the usual ‘sales’ techniques for convincing people to agree with you.

I've had similar experiences to this. Two kinds of vegan, the latter as described by 63 might have more in common with a stalker than you would think

 

[Apthorpe]

I'd think more to be lost than gained by pursuing this. If someone kicks off about rabbits being shot, you're not going to change their mind about deer, but you may cause ill feeling.

 

[Mungo]

As above: it comes down to the logic or otherwise behind the vegan/vegetarianism.

It is impossible to change someone’s mind if it’s an emotional decision - and even attempting to do so will escalate conflict rapidly.

If it’s a reasoned decision, then it’s actually very easy.

You will usually know very quickly when you chat to them which one they are.

 

[63]

As above: it comes down to the logic or otherwise behind the vegan/vegetarianism.

It is impossible to change someone’s mind if it’s an emotional decision - and even attempting to do so will escalate conflict rapidly.

If it’s a reasoned decision, then it’s actually very easy.

You will usually know very quickly when you chat to them which one they are.

Although the certain route to failure is to assume they’re a f***ing idiot and treat them as such from the outset. The chatting bit is key and often missed as everyone jumps into the safety of their ideological trenches faster than a Russian conscript who’s spotted a drone.

 

[Mungo]

Although the certain route to failure is to assume they’re a f***ing idiot and treat them as such from the outset. The chatting bit is key and often missed as everyone jumps into the safety of their ideological trenches faster than a Russian conscript who’s spotted a drone.

Absolutely.

Talking is always a good thing to do.

If they’re an emotional non-meat eater, it’s the only thing that will work. If you become friends first, they eventually shift their understanding: ‘I like Bob. Bob wants to shoot things. Since I like Bob, he must be nice. Therefore shooting things (at least by Bob) must also be ok.’

 

[suburban bushwacker]

buy her a copy of The Omnivore’s Dilemma

 

[Rake Aboot]

Interesting dilemma for sure. Most vegetarians and vegans ( the latter are very very rare) understand why shooting is required.
If someone is a vegan because they jumped on an animal rights bandwagon you’re on a hiding to nothing.

I’ve been lucky, cause I’m a deer stalker who was vegetarian I could get on anywhere haha!

 

[wytonpjs]

Post #2 is absolutely on the mark. I believe it to be both good and true.

I have a niece, a member of the UN Sec Gen's Climate Advisory Panel who is vegetarian but she eats game on the grounds it has had a natural life and if harvested should be used; very rational. Equally I remember one of the best Natural England reserve wardens I encountered in the S Lakes, when I lived and worked there, who was vegetarian but actively stalked deer on the grounds they needed active management and he was a reasonable shot to perform the task humanely. Again he was adamant the product should enter the food chain and be used. [Not long after we first met I told him the problem is that because he is so good he would probably be promoted out of area and the loss would be ours.] Such folk are not that rare.

It is the (frequently wilfully ignorant) mentality which is so hard if not impossible to argue against because that frame of mindset is closed to logical and rational argument.

It is a mark of wisdom to be able to distinguish the difference between these two categories. I wish I had it.

Spot on. One of my best customers is an ethical vegan who not only allows me to take deer off her 6 acres wooded land to protect the trees but eats the venison, tans the hides and ploughs the bones back into the ground. She recognises that deer are on the increase and need to be managed and provided that’s done humanely, she’s happy to eat it! She is an outdoors instructor and forages as much as she can. She is now almost through living on the land for a year living off its produce and half a dozen deer (and a boar). She’s an inspiration.

Back to the OP. She’s made a podcast about her life living off the land which covers her views on deer and how she’s come to terms with her decision. I’ll try to find the link for you - might be one to pass on to the land owner?

 

[Jon P]

It is possible if you are lucky- I have had a few places owned by vegetarians- started off on the rabbits as demolished there veg gardens, then after getting to know them well , moved onto the deer as someone renting there ground was complaining about damage- or try and spot some old or injured deer in the area and highlight the welfare issues- friends got onto one farm like that, fawn with a badly broken leg. 20 yrs later he still the only one allowed to keep the deer numbers down on that place. It is possible.

 

[63]

Spot on. One of my best customers is an ethical vegan who not only allows me to take deer off her 6 acres wooded land to protect the trees but eats the venison, tans the hides and ploughs the bones back into the ground. She recognises that deer are on the increase and need to be managed and provided that’s done humanely, she’s happy to eat it! She is an outdoors instructor and forages as much as she can. She is now almost through living on the land for a year living off its produce and half a dozen deer (and a boar). She’s an inspiration.

Back to the OP. She’s made a podcast about her life living off the land which covers her views on deer and how she’s come to terms with her decision. I’ll try to find the link for you - might be one to pass on to the land owner?

I’d be interested in that link too

 

[HonestJohn]

Tell them main objective is to ensure there’s no risk of transferring TB to them from the deer via their vegetables/other, and you’re just looking to monitor/control any that look unwell

 

[Crunchy Peanut Butter]

I would simply invest 6 months charming the **** out of them and then reassess

 

[Bowland blades]

This post is not an invitation to have a dig at peoples’ beliefs, I am looking for some genuine advice please.
I am very new to stalking, and its very early days. But happened to be talking to a friend whose family have some land. Short version is sold off a farmhouse, kept some paddacks, woodland, barn etc.
I also know his dad & they are very nice helpful folk. I was asking if they had anyone manage their deer & he said they don’t, and he would potentially be ok with giving me permission on the land. However, he is a vegetarian & his wife is a vegan/veggie (not sure which) & when she found out a family friend was shooting rabbits up there she kicked off enough that they asked him to stop, so she would likely have serious objections to stalking there.
I was wondering if anyone had a similar experience & what the outcome was, how to appropriately present the benefits of deer management to someone who may not want to hear it, which points to make, and how our views may be mutually beneficial rather than clash.
I know his parents are meat eaters, former farmers and I think its them who own the land but as I am essentially asking for something from them and offering a service in return which may cause an issue in the family, I don’t want to put them in a difficult spot without preempting it with his wife first??!!
Sorry its a long post, but does anyone have anything constructive to add that may help?
Many thanks

Vegetarians also anties come in different formats of programming ! I have a real good fried a long term Anti that will eat venison and such but thinks things like the mass production of barn Lambs and battery hens are beyond the pail ( i agree tbf) .
when the horse keeping anti looses a well loved horse a broken leg and gets P.T.S there views have changed towards rabbits and their tunnelling .
Same when they have Rats in the house etc etc
Remember they set the rules on their land and we can walk away if we don't like how they want something done !
I occasionally get asked to finish injured deer and such by folks that do not allow normal management
Don't mention the hypocrisy of it all

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Glad it is different here in Germany. The state rules that all game must be managed for the good of the environment and all land / forest owners are obliged but required to be a member of the local hunt owners association, this then in turn pass the shooting rights to assigned hunters via a legal 9 - 12 year lease. Anti landowners cannot block access to their land by these hunters.

 

[dickmills]

buy her a copy of The Omnivore’s Dilemma

Sounds interesting, ordered myself a copy, thanks

 

[dickmills]

Thanks for all the replies, all very good points. As I suspected there is much to consider. At the end of the day as I am so new there is no rush & I certainly don’t want to upset anyone in the process. My friend said they would be more than happy for me to ‘practice’ up there, just with binos etc. to get better at finding & monitoring them away from public footpaths etc. so I think thats a win in itself at this point. Perhaps I could take a good camera & document anything I find, injured deer or tree/crop damage as you mentioned and see how we progress over time. Quite rightly said, at the end of the day its not my land.
Thanks for the advice all, much appreciated.

 

[dickmills]

Spot on. One of my best customers is an ethical vegan who not only allows me to take deer off her 6 acres wooded land to protect the trees but eats the venison, tans the hides and ploughs the bones back into the ground. She recognises that deer are on the increase and need to be managed and provided that’s done humanely, she’s happy to eat it! She is an outdoors instructor and forages as much as she can. She is now almost through living on the land for a year living off its produce and half a dozen deer (and a boar). She’s an inspiration.

Back to the OP. She’s made a podcast about her life living off the land which covers her views on deer and how she’s come to terms with her decision. I’ll try to find the link for you - might be one to pass on to the land owner?

If you manage to find that link I will give that a listen. Thank you