Pro Guides

[Ranger22]

Where is it contradictory?

 

[laird86]

if you look at nature you will see when animals hunt they take young ,old and sick prey. Wolves won't have looked at the antlers and said thats to good to kill! And there were still plenty good quality deer left.

+1

 

[6pointer]

Laird86 When you decide if ever an animal should be left it is not done on antler size it is done on the quality of the animal.Same way i choose good quality does. I do not charge a Pennie for trophy,s never have never will. In my book if its a cull animal then that's what it is not matter what is on its head. But i do know this if you leave the best quality to breed you will get good quality animals on your ground consistently. You only need to look at the crap that comes off some of the FC ground that is shot regardless age sex or quality and you will realise were we can we should think about what we area doing.
This is in the video section so apologizes. This animal is what i call a good and he has been left he dose not have a massive head but anyone with a knowledge can see quality when it is front of them.

 

[mj robson]

There are 2 disctinctions here, that of management stalking and cull stalking.

Management stalking should be done to greater the genetic quality of the deer on your patch, so that the gene pool is better off after your intervention.

Stalkers who shoot any deer in season with no regard for their genetic quality and see no distiction from one buck to the other are simply culling beasts and reducing their numbers, and will have no effect on the gene pool for that area.

From my experience a lot of forrestry tennents fall into the latter. It really depends on your ground and most importantly the landowners views.

Mark.

 

[Ranger22]

6pointer you just can't resist a dig at the FC can you Good on you if you don't charge, plenty others do. If your so good at it why don't you become a fultime stalker? That is a question and not any sort of dig
Al

 

[www.yorkshireroestalking.]

Take a cattle farmer. He breeds top quality cows. He can't keep all of them. He gets rid of the rubbish, keeps a couple of others hanging around to bring on and then sells the rest. Professional and ameteur stalkers should be the same. Take some of the good ones, leave the best to come on and cull the rest.

well thats a very good strategy but flawed if you don't know every deer on your ground. (and who does?). certinally recreational stalkers can't when they are only there now and again. If you shoot all the bucks at varing ages then that will leave varing ages. And as a rule the biggies are less obvious so will figure less in the cull.
I have about 16,000 acres of varing ground on 20 permissions even out everyday twice, I have plenty of healthy deer left and some ground a month into the season i still haven't stepped foot on yet.
My landowners are very pleased, i'm there occasionally they see no less deer but no more, foxes and lame animals are gathered up quick and no ones short of meat. They get the numbers looked after, I make a living and clients go home having shot deer at many different locations.
This works for me and we still have plenty of great deer at all ages. The standard of heads is increasing and browsing and feeder raiding decreasing.
I say managing is doing what works in your area to say otherwise is narrow minded, we all have different obligations to fill. Oh and one thing with the cattle farmer he breeds/manages his animals for MEAT and CONFORMATION not heads.

 

[6pointer]

Ranger it is not a dig at the FC just stating a fact the deer that come off ground that is shot with out rime or reason will have a detrimental effect on the quality of the deer. I am sure the commercial forestry companies don't give a fig about that as long as there trees are ok. I also control deer on new trees and protect crops in some areas and i know how to hit them hard. But it is time limited and when the trees get past the protection stage we change our management plan. With regards doing it as a job there is a simple answer no one would pay me what i can earn at my current job..
John i am am a recreational stalker and while i don't know all the deer on my ground i know most and because i am not under pressure to fill my purse i can and do watch and learn more than your average pro stalker.

 

[www.yorkshireroestalking.]

Ranger it is not a dig at the FC just stating a fact the deer that come off ground that is shot with out rime or reason will have a detrimental effect on the quality of the deer. I am sure the commercial forestry companies don't give a fig about that as long as there trees are ok. I also control deer on new trees and protect crops in some areas and i know how to hit them hard. But it is time limited and when the trees get past the protection stage we change our management plan. With regards doing it as a job there is a simple answer no one would pay me what i can earn at my current job..
John i am am a recreational stalker and while i don't know all the deer on my ground i know most and because i am not under pressure to fill my purse i can and do watch and learn more than your average pro stalker.

Thats good davie but whats right?? management means so much to different people. I've been sustainable for 10 years nearly every day mate and shoot more deer every year, and you yourself pointed out recently to me the heads were looking better. So are the body weights so is it bad management? regardless of how much I've made this week.

 

[Jelendeer]

Ranger it is not a dig at the FC just stating a fact the deer that come off ground that is shot with out rime or reason will have a detrimental effect on the quality of the deer. I am sure the commercial forestry companies don't give a fig about that as long as there trees are ok. I also control deer on new trees and protect crops in some areas and i know how to hit them hard. But it is time limited and when the trees get past the protection stage we change our management plan. With regards doing it as a job there is a simple answer no one would pay me what i can earn at my current job..
John i am am a recreational stalker and while i don't know all the deer on my ground i know most and because i am not under pressure to fill my purse i can and do watch and learn more than your average pro stalker.

Hi David,

......... and because i am not under pressure to fill my purse i can and do watch and learn more than your average pro stalker

How do you know that if you're not a pro stalker?

 

[teyhan1]

Where is it contradictory?

Wolves do not generally take the best youngsters. As you have said they will take young, old and sick. This buck having survived at least 1 year (as we cannot tell if it is just a yearling) cannot be described as young.
When making cull plans ages are generally defned as young (upto 1 year) middle aged (2-6yrs) old ( 6 and over). Usually body indicators are taken not antler size in determining age in the field. To try to age animals more than this is a fools game as there are too many environmental factors.
Therefore if you are advocating shooting this buck based on the fact that it young then you are contradicting your argument because this deer is neither young (and could probably outrun a wolf) old or sick. You are only shooting it because you can.

 

[Jelendeer]

Hey David (6p), isn't this a bit contradictory??

........ Just watched your video and very good it was but both bucks to me were small cull crap animals would you charge more for the one with six points as opposed to his brother who only has four. At what time would you tell the client this on booking or when your out stalking. Thinking of doing a bit my self in the future..... (Post 6)

........I do not charge a Pennie for trophy,s never have never will........ (post 23)

Is the purse getting a bit light?

 

[DaveJelen]

Hey David (6p), isn't this a bit contradictory??

........ Just watched your video and very good it was but both bucks to me were small cull crap animals would you charge more for the one with six points as opposed to his brother who only has four. At what time would you tell the client this on booking or when your out stalking. Thinking of doing a bit my self in the future..... (Post 6)

........I do not charge a Pennie for trophy,s never have never will........ (post 23)

Is the purse getting a bit light?

Yep full of hot air !!

 

[www.yorkshireroestalking.]

Well he did ask me about a structure for charging. POST 27 # With regards doing it as a job there is a simple answer no one would pay me what i can earn at my current job.

. (with all them big bucks davie thats some job you have mate if you go on my price list, LOL).
John i am am a recreational stalker and while i don't know all the deer on my ground i know most and because i am not under pressure to fill my purse i can and do watch and learn more than your average pro stalker.
And how can you be sure they were brothers?
Different sizes and antler structure as well as body weights.
If they were indeed brothers they shared the same father, so have the same genetics, why is 1 promising and the other not. Blows holes in the whole thing IMO.

 

[Jelendeer]

Who was it who said "GOOD SHOT, RELOAD"? .................... Oh yes, it was another good Yorkshireman!!..... and a pro guide!

 

[bogtrotter]

OK here goes, should know better by now but heres my penny worth.

Roe population how many very hard to be accurate be wary of the person who tells you how many Roe he has on his ground at best its an educated guess.


OK you have made your educated guess, to keep your population stable a breeding population of a 100 Roe should produce somewhere between 30 and 40 carcases a year this is both male and female

OK you have now arrived at the number you can cull again a guesstimate but hopefully if you know your ground
you will not be too far out

OK you need to cull slightly more Does than Bucks, its almost impossible to select Bucks by their antlers, why because they can vary so much from year to year what was a medal head last year may be a mediocre six pointer this year and could be a medal head again next year, so the only real way to select is by body condition and age
again ageing a beast on the hoof is a guess, best you can hope for is young , middle aged and old, luckily for us thats good enough.


Oh and as for genetics a lot of the top people now believe producing future Bucks of quality is more to do with the Doe than the Buck, now that statement is what I have read,I have no way of knowing if its correct or not.


Buck cull 60%yearling's
20% middle aged
20 old

Doe cull 60%young
40% mature

Unless you have a small cull to make its pointless trying to select Does if you have a large cull to make its far more effective in regulating the population just to shoot the numbers needed selection only by the question young or mature.

Better go and get the tin hat on.

 

[teyhan1]

Sounds bang on. Although I tend to work on a 30% cull. Of course things change with other deer species.

Sounds like you did the Advanced Stalkers cert like I did instead of all this DSC s--t money making c--p they turn out these days

 

[Jelendeer]

OK here goes, should know better by now but heres my penny worth.

Roe population how many very hard to be accurate be wary of the person who tells you how many Roe he has on his ground at best its an educated guess.


OK you have made your educated guess, to keep your population stable a breeding population of a 100 Roe should produce somewhere between 30 and 40 carcases a year this is both male and female

OK you have now arrived at the number you can cull again a guesstimate but hopefully if you know your ground
you will not be too far out

OK you need to cull slightly more Does than Bucks, its almost impossible to select Bucks by their antlers, why because they can vary so much from year to year what was a medal head last year may be a mediocre six pointer this year and could be a medal head again next year, so the only real way to select is by body condition and age
again ageing a beast on the hoof is a guess, best you can hope for is young , middle aged and old, luckily for us thats good enough.


Oh and as for genetics a lot of the top people now believe producing future Bucks of quality is more to do with the Doe than the Buck, now that statement is what I have read,I have no way of knowing if its correct or not.


Buck cull 60%yearling's
20% middle aged
20 old

Doe cull 60%young
40% mature

Unless you have a small cull to make its pointless trying to select Does if you have a large cull to make its far more effective in regulating the population just to shoot the numbers needed selection only by the question young or mature.

Better go and get the tin hat on.

Good stuff Bogtrotter,

Having farmed Red deer for some years, I am convinced that both the stags and the hinds influence trophy quality.

We would mother-up calves to hinds on a yearly basis, and single sire mate the best stags with the best hinds. After performance recording all progeny, it was easy to identify which stags produced the best calves, but also which hinds produced the best. Each year we'd analyse growth rates and antler growth of the progeny, and it was clear that both dam and sire had an influence. 50:50 I'd say.

Regards,

Mike.
(Director - Jelen Deer Services) Home | Jelen Deer Services

 

[6pointer]

Jellen i think you will find my post about charging a bit tongue in cheek and i would never charge for a trophy that said i don't blame others just think there structure should be clear and transparent may i also ask did you all sit down and jump on this post (the jellen clan) just because i pulled you for misleading the readership nice to stick together.
Now john i am not in a well paid job and i am sure a medal price at what you or any other of the pro guys charge would be nice every now and then but they are not a guarantee and only a few are shot in a season. I also could not have a chap travel 100,s of miles to shoot deer with me and force him to walk by a mediocre six point buck because he had not paid me extra. Nor would i let him shoot a top class trophy that i had decided would be left on the ground (Its just not who i am)
I also believe in leaving good healthy does as i have said and with out a doubt it pays off you only need to see the difference over a few years on the scales.The two bucks that i had marked down as twins were from observations i had made but you are correct they might not be,But then again they might and the reason the smaller weaker one would be removed because while he carries the same genes he certainly did not display the correct ones and MIGHT be carrying them in a recessive manner but i cant take that risk the lad in the video while not the best head on a young buck looks every thing of quality so is carrying the genes as a dominant
Quality is there even at this time of year when Roe deer do not look at there best

 

[1995rs]

As a matter of interest 6pointer what is your occupation? ATB Rich

 

[6pointer]

Now why would that interest you and what would it have to do with this post.?What is your job? Are you a pro stalker are you married to a jellen? lol