Refusal advice

[75]

Just ring up the FEO who you’ve dealt with and who recommended buying a cabinet and have a chat. Ask them the reasons for refusal and how best to proceed. Would they like you to write to them stating your case, for example?

Don’t get arsey and point out they told you to buy a cabinet or “why haven’t you spoken to me already if I’m a risk” etc.

Be polite, listen and seek their advice. The person who made the decision is almost certainly not the FEO you spoke with so they’re prob feeling a bit stuck in the middle. Go easy with them and you may find you have an ally.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I have a feeling that BASC no longer provide refusal/revocation cover with their member insurance? - maybe @Conor O'Gorman can confirm one way or the other?

BASC firearms services as follows:

Services to Members - BASC

Our Service To Members Services What Can You Expect From Us Contact Us Confidential advice on firearms and related matters such as knives, explosives and countryside law. Advocacy with firearms licensing personnel on behalf of members. Technical and ballistic advice on all aspects of sporting...

basc.org.uk

 

[Liveonce]

Their you go Join BASC if not already a member and seek their help.

 

[Jeff8861]

Don't bother with the feo you need to discuss with the flm. Feo doesn't make the decision. Alot of recommendations on here which is always going to happen but isn't really a help to you.

 

[TringSaint]

How can it be credible when the op wasn't even questioned/interviewed about said allegation

This is the issue with family court hearings vs criminal court.
If this had been raised with the police then in all reality nothing would have happened. But a family court judge doesn’t need to review loads of evidence to reach their judgement - they can just hear / read the depositions provided and any evidence that they feel is pertinent to the case, but they alone make the judgement and it’s use is only for the family court only and has no real bearing on guilt or innocence.

It’s not fair and loads of dads get non-mols applied against them solely on the evidence of their partner which isn’t tested in court and sticks until there is a fact finding hearing which may not be for 12-18 months. In that time access to children can be limited or heavily restricted to phone only and it’s sometimes based on pure fabrication. In no time does the claimant ever face charges for perjury when this happens!

Overcoming these issues is tough and the judgements stick like glue!

 

[Tf223]

How do?

So let’s say that I accuse you of theft and report it to the police. The police investigate and fail to find any evidence of the crime having been committed and refuse to take it forwards or, even better, don’t even investigate because there is no evidence.

So, in that scenario, are you innocent or guilty in the eyes of the law (and I’m not talking about if you actually did it or not!!)?

Plenty of perps are ‘guilty’ but get off on a technicality, but imho, if the police don’t even interview the suspect then it seems likely that there is nothing to question on, or the acts are not deemed to be criminal.

We have to assume innocence until evidence proves otherwise, else we end up like the US!

You have a misunderstanding - the question is not whether the was found guilty of that offence, we do not find a person innocent in the UK. It is purely a question of the they they are guilty ‘beyond all reasonable doubt’ when considering conviction.

The law on whether you committed an offence (a criminal test) is different to the civil test (on the balance of probabilities) applied in civil proceedings such as the refusal of a licence.

On face value there seems to be nothing in this case, however I doubt the police would have refused on the limits of the information before us. Without disputing the OPs information, I believe there to be more behind the determination, even if the OP isn’t aware of it all.

I don’t assume innocence in the absence of conviction, that is merely whether the criminal threshold is proven.

The assumption of innocence, in extreme cases, leads to the likes of Harold shipman, jimmy saville, Lucy letby, etc. whereby wrong doing is dismissed out of hand.

I support a strong stance on firearms licensing erring on the side of caution - even if that means the civil liberties of the few are impinged for the protection of the masses (including the protection of those holding an SGC/FAC). That includes against me if ever I find myself in that position. Public safety first for the sake of all of us on here, but also for the wider public.

 

[TringSaint]

You have a misunderstanding - the question is not whether the was found guilty of that offence, we do not find a person innocent in the UK. It is purely a question of the they they are guilty ‘beyond all reasonable doubt’ when considering conviction.

The law on whether you committed an offence (a criminal test) is different to the civil test (on the balance of probabilities) applied in civil proceedings such as the refusal of a licence.

On face value there seems to be nothing in this case, however I doubt the police would have refused on the limits of the information before us. Without disputing the OPs information, I believe there to be more behind the determination, even if the OP isn’t aware of it all.

I don’t assume innocence in the absence of conviction, that is merely whether the criminal threshold is proven.

The assumption of innocence, in extreme cases, leads to the likes of Harold shipman, jimmy saville, Lucy letby, etc. whereby wrong doing is dismissed out of hand.

I support a strong stance on firearms licensing erring on the side of caution - even if that means the civil liberties of the few are impinged for the protection of the masses (including the protection of those holding an SGC/FAC). That includes against me if ever I find myself in that position. Public safety first for the sake of all of us on here, but also for the wider public.

But…… in this case it wasn’t a criminal case pursued by the CPS, but instead within the family court, and those two beasts are very different when it comes to the approach.

The OP has not been convicted of anything, but instead has had findings made against him based on the viewpoint of a family court judge.

That judge’s findings do carry weight but do not mean that any crime has occurred and do not constitute any form of criminal record, but under a CRB the initial complaint and the findings will be there.

My wife saw many non-resident parents put through the wringer by their ex’s - sometimes resulting in police interviews, etc and most of which were totally fabricated, with many resolved in a fact finding hearing. But they are not rigorous and also not really open to appeal, largely because they aren’t convictions per se.

So coming back to innocence, we have to assume innocence until evidence suggests otherwise, else this type of situation will become more common, especially if the claimant knows that the threshold for proof is quite low.

 

[Tf223]

i don’t assume innocence merely in the absence of a conviction (and it’s inherent criminal standard test).

More info, beyond what we have, would be needed to determine if one could be satisfied of compete innocence. Otherwise you have to assume no criminal case is dropped because it’s not in the public interest to pursue further, that no case is dropped just because it falls just short of all reasonable doubt etc.

On this point I think we will have to differ.

 

[Utectok]

Not what you want to hear but have you considered fly fishing? Fun gets you out there and no FAC required

 

[SC3]

Not what you want to hear but have you considered fly fishing? Fun gets you out there and no FAC required

I was just looking for a book on that by J R Hartley.

 

[Heym SR20]

Fundamentally non of us on here are really able to pass judgement as we will not have the full facts of the case.

The FEO will have done his enquiries and made a recommendation upwards, and decision will have been based on the information he had gathered and put forward.

The only way this situation can be resolved is for OP to demonstrate beyond the balance of probabilities that allegations from the past are no longer valid and that he is now a person of good character.

This may be as simple as having a conversation with the FEO and to find why the FEO’s recommendation to grant was overturned.

It may be that the OP needs to go away and gain experience shooting, go on some clay pigeon courses etc and build up a body of evidence and support that actually he is a person of good character. It may also require a change in personal circumstances etc.

Or it may need to be taken to court.

Often though a decision on a person’s character or suitability is not based on a single piece of evidence, but on lots of little bits that form an overall impression.

 

[Utectok]

personally id join SACs and ask to speak to fraser... he is very good

 

[JTO]

I know of one acrimonious divorce where the wife made allegations of pedophilia against her husband. Both were serving police officers. The police know what goes on!

 

[SC3]

For your information, before considering an appeal, I have spoken to my FEO and he won't enter into discussion over it. He has been polite, but said he can't advise anything other than an appeal.

 

[Jeff8861]

For your information, before considering an appeal, I have spoken to my FEO and he won't enter into discussion over it. He has been polite, but said he can't advise anything other than an appeal.

As I mentioned earlier seek an appointment with the flm. Feo are not decision makers

 

[Liveonce]

Think they have closed the door to him and the appeal process is the only way forward.

You can represent yourself in court so possibly you can appeal for very little cost.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Wait a minute? No conviction, an allegation….and people think he should wait a while?

Absolutely not - write a stern letter to the CC stating you have never been convicted of a crime (I assume you have no other record?) and stating that this was an allegation and nothing more and that you should be presumed innocent until charged and convicted of a crime.

I can’t believe people are saying “wait a while” !?!? What a roll over society we are becoming, this is tyrannical and should not effect a SGC application!

If it did then anyone could cause someone to lose certs and not get them back - utter nonsense!

Good luck to the OP, get writing letters!

Regards,
Gixer

Happens all the time
Will continue to happen as backlash to events like Plymouth fester

Divorce is by far the biggest cause of revocation (temporary or not) or forced storage.

OP if the process involving the allegations has passed explain the timeline to the police and ask for reconsideration
If it hasn’t I expect you will waste a lot of time and money trying to get a change of position

Go shoot with other SGC holders in the meantime.
Doesn’t stop you buying. A gun a having a friend hold it
This is a extremely common situation

 

[Bo Diddley]

Here is a snippet of advice that was given to me by a Lothario years ago;

Women & cats have a lot in common, leave them both with their tails held high and wanting more and you can always go back for more.
And remember they both have sharp claws when upset!

Too late for you @SC3, but it may help someone who is considering parting ways with a partner.

Ps. Fly Fishing by JR Hartley is a good read. A lovely guy as well.

 

[SC3]

I've had some great advice from people. Not so sure I'm going to see it into appeal as if I lose, I've got to potentially pay out thousands in costs.

Or appeal and withdraw at the last moment just to see if they change their mind if they get a sniff of it being granted? Do the Police call for a meeting with me when they know I'm appealing?

Either way all isn't lost, as I had no intention of buying a shot gun within the next year or so, I just wanted my own certificate so that I can hire a club gun for when I want to shoot some clays when my friend isn't around (as I work shift, I have days off in the week too). So I can still shoot with my friend and use his, as I had been doing for the past year or so.

So, I have a gun cabinet I didn't need....time and money spent on that, but I guess if I can't sell it on, I could always just use it as a safe.

 

[Jeff8861]

Contact the Crown Court they will then schedule a date mention in fixes. The flm have the got 21 days to send you their appeal bundle.