Rifle and calibre conumdrum

[www.yorkshireroestalking.]

I have a browning Maral in .300 WM its a very light rifle yet exceptionally well behaved. It is fitted with brownings new recoil pad and it does work. I think your past experience with the 300 was just the rifle it was chambered in.
There is footage of me firing the maral here.
Croatia driven boar hunting experience. - YouTube

 

[Southern]

Excuse me for asking something that some other foreigners have probably asked this forum 100 times, and which I should have asked at the beginning, but what exactly are the legal restraints tying your hands here? We all understand the expense side of it, especially a big dangerous game rifle which might not see much hunting use around home. Do the regulators not understand that, and make provisions for owning a rifle which you need to take abroad?

What if you had a hunting companion who was going on a trip like this - could you go in together and buy a big bore rifle?

I can certainly see why you would want to have a rifle built for a special hunt, too, and keep it around afterwards.

Knowing my own mind, and some of my friends, that we don't want to get rid of a rifle that went on a special hunting trip. I have owned several rifles, which I bought from elderly gentlemen who commissioned them for an elk hunt, or African plains game hunt, and did not want to turn them go until the last minute, and then only to make sure they were passed on to someone who would appreciate what they had and enjoy it, rather than an heir who would sell it off or bugger it up.

 

[Snagman]

Excuse me for asking something that some other foreigners have probably asked this forum 100 times, and which I should have asked at the beginning, but what exactly are the legal restraints tying your hands here? We all understand the expense side of it, especially a big dangerous game rifle which might not see much hunting use around home. Do the regulators not understand that, and make provisions for owning a rifle which you need to take abroad?

What if you had a hunting companion who was going on a trip like this - could you go in together and buy a big bore rifle?

I can certainly see why you would want to have a rifle built for a special hunt, too, and keep it around afterwards.

Knowing my own mind, and some of my friends, that we don't want to get rid of a rifle that went on a special hunting trip. I have owned several rifles, which I bought from elderly gentlemen who commissioned them for an elk hunt, or African plains game hunt, and did not want to turn them go until the last minute, and then only to make sure they were passed on to someone who would appreciate what they had and enjoy it, rather than an heir who would sell it off or bugger it up.

I won't have much of a problem opening a slot on my cert for a Dangerous game rifle due to my having hunted overseas before and having the intentions to do it again even if only rarely. My licensing department was always very easy to deal with as long as you had a genuine reason for wanting a firearm.

The problem arises when you have multiple firearms for the same job, for instance I have my .270 for cull work and I could ask for another working rifle as a spare which would be ok as things happen or maybe I need to lend a rifle rifle to a guest but should I ask for a third because I feel like getting one or ooh a new shiny model comes out then that would raise eyebrows as I would already have 2 doing potentially the same job.

In this scenario I have 2 rifles for overseas use one for close to medium range work and another for mountain or plains hunting at extended ranges both of which my licensing department are ok with and I would be allowed to get a DG rifle as none of the other two can be used for DG. But if I wanted another rifle for overseas use (not DG) I would realistically have to sell one of my others unless I can come up with a reason why I couldn't use one of the other two.

To own a rifle over here after the lengthy application process you must then justify each firearm with a good reason and then your certificate will have a slot opened on it for that particular firearm. I tend to think of the good reason as specifically justifying the purpose for the firearm, and as long as it's reasonable I've never had a problem. But there's also a bit of of paperwork involved every time you wish to change a firearm or alter your license as in your ammunition allowances.

 

[Southern]

That is what I had gathered from reading posts here. Now, about my second question... You are talking of buying a custom rifle, commissioned build, or as you would say, "bespoke". So I assume you want to build a keepsake, an heirloom, personal, and hang on to it.

I like the same sort of things, but build them myself, find an old one and restore it, of find one in superb condition and just buy it. I have often been able to find something exactly like I craved for years, built for or ordered by someone with similar tastes. Most of them would have been, for me, unaffordable to build today. A lot of the nicer gun retailers seem to have a steady flow of trade ins or estate sales. Westley Richards, Holland & Holland, Churchill, Beretta Gallery, Rigby, and a host of individual dealers, have fine rifles from the Golden Age of safaris passing through their hands all the time. Even better deals are found in estate sales and auctions, or even through the attorney handling the settlement of affairs.

A very affordable and practical alternative is buying a Sako, Winchester M70 Express, or Remington C grade, and restocking it to perfectly fit you, if necessary. All three of these also have several aftermarket synthetic stocks which are more suitable to a wet environment such as British Columbia, Alaska, and tropical jungles. The Winchester M70 in .458 is a nice rifle, very smooth, really good stock ( comb a bit high and thick for iron sights) for less than $1,000 US.

 

[Snagman]

That is what I had gathered from reading posts here. Now, about my second question... You are talking of buying a custom rifle, commissioned build, or as you would say, "bespoke". So I assume you want to build a keepsake, an heirloom, personal, and hang on to it.

I like the same sort of things, but build them myself, find an old one and restore it, of find one in superb condition and just buy it. I have often been able to find something exactly like I craved for years, built for or ordered by someone with similar tastes. Most of them would have been, for me, unaffordable to build today. A lot of the nicer gun retailers seem to have a steady flow of trade ins or estate sales. Westley Richards, Holland & Holland, Churchill, Beretta Gallery, Rigby, and a host of individual dealers, have fine rifles from the Golden Age of safaris passing through their hands all the time. Even better deals are found in estate sales and auctions, or even through the attorney handling the settlement of affairs.

A very affordable and practical alternative is buying a Sako, Winchester M70 Express, or Remington C grade, and restocking it to perfectly fit you, if necessary. All three of these also have several aftermarket synthetic stocks which are more suitable to a wet environment such as British Columbia, Alaska, and tropical jungles. The Winchester M70 in .458 is a nice rifle, very smooth, really good stock ( comb a bit high and thick for iron sights) for less than $1,000 US.

I'm not 100% sure I'm following you but I take it we are talking about the DG rifle now?

I had looked extensively at factory and second hand rifles after deciding that I would be pursuing game that might develop a sour demeanour. I certainly wasn't too sure on what way I was going to go calibre wise so I set out and managed to try out a few rifles, I got to fire one .404 a couple of .416s and a .458 Lott.

I only decided that I would be going for a Rigby Big Game after an unexpected email telling me Rigby was back in London and would be producing a rifle for just under £8000. Expensive but doable, and with Pre-64 Magnum Winchesters rare over here I just wanted a bit more class than my old CZ .375, so I now had the opportunity to take a British made .416 Rigby to hunt in the African sun. I'm not against the other rifles certainly if I did not have the means I would simply get another CZ or a second hand rifle in good nick which other than the Sako are more available in big calibre's over here.

Something about the Rigby just tugs at my heart strings,

 

[Southern]

I am sure that pre-64 Winchesters are rather uncommon in the UK. I have owned three pre-64s in .375 H&H, and a half dozen other ones in other chamberings. I have owed the big Ruger 77 (no longer made), a CZ 550, a square bridge Magnum Mauser, a modern CRF Model 70 Express, and a Sako L61R, all in .375 H&H. I own several other modern controlled round (Mauser design) Model 70s. Several of my hunting companions own the modern Model 70s in .458 WM.

I think the modern Connecticut made, and the current South Carolina made Model 70s are superior to most of the pre-64s. The steel is better, the machining is better, the standard grade of stock is much better. The stock design is perfect for scopes or red dot sights, a little to high for the iron sights. The barrel is shorter, about 22.5 inches, and better balanced. The only thing not better right now is the sights. The New England Custom Gun sights were better. That is what I had on my modern .375 and I loved them.

A DGR rifle is a close range rifle. Better powders and bullets achieve the same velocities as in the older 25 inch barrels. A long sight radius is not needed for precise shooting with open sights at 200 or 300 yards. A DGR rifle is often used in thick brush or timber. A shorter barrel is less likely to snag, or jam the muzzle into the ground when moving quickly over rough, steep, or muddy ground.

The bolt, magazine and feeding on the current Model 70 Express is better than the older Model 70s. It tracks better, is very smooth, very reliable, just as the original was.

And the same action, in the classic British calibers, is available in the Dakota 76. A new one can be had for less than $5,000, a used one for $3,000.

A very important factor, as with a shotgun, is fit and how it points. My first three pre-64s in.375 H&H did not fit, point and handle for me as well as the modern one. They were great rifles, but that is why I sold them. The Ruger 77 RSM was too heavy and bulky for me. The CZ550 was too bulky and barrel too long for me. The CZ shot well, but was no where near as smooth as my modern Model 70 Express - and the M70 shot MOA with iron sights.

 

[Snagman]

It's good to hear that the new Model 70 rifles are well so well made hopefully we'll start seeing a few more in the future. I've seen one in the all weather configuration and was quite impressed with the rifle.

Again it's a shame but Dakota rifles aren't openly imported over here it probably is possible to get one but you could easily replace the $ sign with a £ sign and maybe have to add 20% import tax as well.

The CZ I used to have fitted me alright for length of pull but it didn't have any cast on the stock, I suppose that's to be expected. I intend to have the stock altered for myself on the Rigby, just as you say it should point and swing like a good shotgun since it won't really be used at range.

 

[Southern]

There are at least four gun stores in North Carolina who are big importers, and do some exporting. One handles a lot of SxS shotguns. One handles a lot of new Italian shotguns, Merkel, CZ, and is a stocking Dakota dealer. Westley Richards has a store in Montana. If you found a rifle, you could buy it here and they would ship if for you.

Beretta sold the Dakota 76 as their Mato for two years. There may be one lying around. The Dakota cartridges were based on the .404 Jeffery, shortened to 2.5 inches.

I personally have no trepidation about using a push feed action for a DGR, like the Remington 700, Steyr Mannlicher, and the post-64 Model 70. The entire 1964 advertising campaign for the new Model 70 was centered around catalogs and advertisements of the rifles on safari. The M700 long action is magnum length, and it is easy to build any custom upon it. The 7.62x51 cycles easily through the long action in the 6,000 M24s used by the U.S. Army, and used on two legged dangerous game.

 

[Snagman]

There are at least four gun stores in North Carolina who are big importers, and do some exporting. One handles a lot of SxS shotguns. One handles a lot of new Italian shotguns, Merkel, CZ, and is a stocking Dakota dealer. Westley Richards has a store in Montana. If you found a rifle, you could buy it here and they would ship if for you.

Beretta sold the Dakota 76 as their Mato for two years. There may be one lying around. The Dakota cartridges were based on the .404 Jeffery, shortened to 2.5 inches.

I personally have no trepidation about using a push feed action for a DGR, like the Remington 700, Steyr Mannlicher, and the post-64 Model 70. The entire 1964 advertising campaign for the new Model 70 was centered around catalogs and advertisements of the rifles on safari. The M700 long action is magnum length, and it is easy to build any custom upon it. The 7.62x51 cycles easily through the long action in the 6,000 M24s used by the U.S. Army, and used on two legged dangerous game.

You make many valid points and I agree with you even on the push feed (Most modern rifles are more than reliable enough for DG as long as they are set up correctly IMHO). However I'm still going to buy the Rigby, that was decided a while ago and I was mostly looking for opinions on my other two rifles that I use overseas. Not that you haven't brought up many good points and suggestions but I think we've gone off track a little bit here.

 

[Southern]

That is why my friend did for his second African hunt, took a restored .318 Westley Richards, a restored .416 Rigby, and my pristine little 1952 Mannlicher 6.5x54mm.

He paid very little for both his British rifles, and did a lot of the work himself. In the USA, a bring back rifle from the UK or Europe in the 1950s tends to be passed over by the younger plastic and big scope crowd of target plinkers. I will keep my eyes open here, and call several friends who handle estates collections. I paid about 25% of worth for the Brevex Mauser, and about 10 cents on the dollar for a double rifle at a furniture auction, and $450 for a pre-64 in .300 H&H which a fellow traded on a Benelli shotgun.

The the gun dealers know you are looking and they will call you when they see a trade in walk through the door.

Keep the 7mm Rem Mag and .30-06 - known entities, and you have comfort and confidence for the long shots. A .30-06 can easily shoot at .300 H&H performance, and I wouldn't bother to trade a .300 H&H for a .300 WM or .300 WSM.

 

[deerpath]

300 WSM is a necked down 416 cartridge. A bit more and flatter than your 30.06 and 7 RemMag. Or just go up to 375 but you may have FAC conditions to prevent you using it here in UK.

 

[prometheus]

I had looked into getting the Maglock retrofitted for just that reason, it wasn't too expensive but I still wasn't very happy with the way the bridge on the scope mount restricted top loading with the .416 rem mag version I looked at. I would just rather a dedicated rifle for DG preferably a magnum Mauser actioned rifle but that's getting a bit off topic for my general overseas rifle.

You said you have an M03 in .300 win mag how do find it? What loads do you like to use or what ones does the rifle like?

nothing special Snagman, Federal 180 and 200 grain factory rounds. I prefer the 200 as most of the use the W.M has been given has been for driven boar with fairly modest ranges. When it has been used in Scotland to reach reds when culling them well out onto clear fell I've used the 180s very effectively. I have to admit I wouldn't/don't enjoy putting a box of 20 through it on the range one after the other, but I have no issues with it in the field.

 

[Double four]

If you want a proper killing .30 buy a rem ultra mag, lazer like accuracy unbelievable knockdown power and again very flat shooting for .30
I would never go back now it will bowl the biggest of reds stags over with ease just like they have been hit by a truck so should be pretty ok for plains game.
Match it with the right projectile (barnes ttsx ) you have a very hard hitting flat shooting versatile round that you can shoot the smallest of deer upwards with little meat damage.

 

[branko]

You mention sporadic supply of bullet heads 162 grain are you using hornady, have you tried 160 gr partitions for 7mm rem mag, they work out to 600 yds superbly on plains game. 7mm really is your best bet something you can use here and overseas especially plains game Africa, have a look at at www. ballistic studies.com, some inetersting advice on calibres cartridges and bullet
Behaviour also backed up by some good videos. You can get bullet heads from Cliffs.

Hi guys, yes it’s another calibre thread but one I could use a bit of input with.

I’m putting this in the big game thread as the intended rifle would be mostly used for overseas hunting and maybe a bit of use back here for visitors needing to borrow a rifle or a spare if my working gun is in the shop.

First I think I should give you a bit of background on my current setup before we get to the meat of it. Currently for my overseas rifles I have 2 rigs the first is a M03 in .30-06, it fit’s me like a glove and is great up close on moving targets with the 1-6x24 Swaro and I have a second 3-12x56 Ziess in it’s own QD mounts for use as a general purpose rifle. My second rifle was bought as a mountain and plains rifle after a trip out to northern Namibia which highlighted my lack of experience at longer range shooting. It’s a Sako 85 SS hunter in 7mm Rem mag with a Khales 4.5-18x50, a real track driver and with the scope using either the ret for holdover or dialling in (Yeah like I ever have time for that) I feel happy shooting out to around 4-500 yards.

Now the 7mm is for use overseas hunting in places and at ranges that are outwith the norm for general Deer Stalking over here so please bear that in mind and let’s not have a long range rage thread or I will ask the Mods for a lock.

I have been looking for a way to combine these two rifles now for quite while but I keep coming up short. The main reason I would like to do this is since Rigby is back in London and now producing a .416 in semi obtainable money I would like to finish off my inventory with a Big Game rifle. However I would like to make some space and simplify my ammunition requirements which currently covers 150 grain .30-06, 180 grain .30-06 and 162 grain 7mm Rem mag. The latter two are becoming more sporadic and I have to order them in more often than not, which means I have to travel to the other side of Scotland to pick it up.

I’ve thought long and hard about a .300 Win Mag but I borrowed one once and it kicked the living daylights out of me and I’m a big enough lad 6’ 1” 90kg and very fit. It might have just been the rifle itself an old Ruger 77 All Weather with a rubbish plastic stock but I don’t have fond memories of the .300.

I’m looking for suggestions on calibre and possible rifle combinations including scopes. The suggested rifle could be used on Boar in Croatia, Chamois in the Austrian mountains, Zebra on the plains and Kopies of Namibia or Eland in wait a minute thorn. Also the calibre must be available the world over. I suppose that maybe I should just keep the two rifles as such a thing may not be effectively possible but I thought I would ask the question, thanks in advance.

 

[Snagman]

Whew I've fallen behind on this thread let's see,

Deerpath: The only problem I would have with the .300 WSM would be ammo supply abroad, you can get ammo here but it's got to be ordered a month in advance. I could reload it but I don't want to take ammo I reloaded here to Africa or other warm climates as I have no means of testing the load for the heat it would experience overseas. I used to have a .375 as my single overseas rifle but I felt it was too much of a compromise and at range it suffered compared to my current setup, I had looked into getting hold of 235 and 270 grain ammo to alleviate it but again it's not a particularly common loading and required a special order. Both good suggestions tough.

Double four: While I'm sure the .300 Ultra mag is an awesome round I think it would require at least a 26" barrel and stern constitution in a sporter weight rifle which might rule it out for closer range work. How is your rifle set up out of interest? How do you find the recoil? And whats the ammo supply like I'm unsure if I could find a box in a backwoods gunshop.

Branko: I'm using the 162 grain RWS Cone point ammo, it seems to be the most common heavy 7mm Rem Mag load in this area and I can usually get a couple of boxes off the shelf. I would like to use either a partition or A-frame given the choice but the Cone point works well and is available here. Again the problem is having to order in different loads which takes time but by using the 162 grain ammo it's fairly easy for me to switch to heavier 170-175 grain ammo or the 140-150 grain stuff with just a little bit of adjustment to the scope giving me quick flexibility of whatever ammo I can get in a pinch. I've seen the ballistic studies website some really good stuff on there.

Keep the suggestions coming guys.

 

[Southern]

For sale in the USA

[h=1]Cogswell & Harrison .404 jeffrey[/h]$2900.00 US
Cogswell & Harrison .404 jeffrey : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com


[h=1]Ruger M77 Express Magnum 416 Rigby African[/h]$2300.00
Ruger M77 Express Magnum 416 Rigby African : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

NOTE: This is the older one from late 1990s. All these were nicely finished, in figured blonde and chocolate, with really good sights and heavy barrels.
I had one in .375 H&H, which was too heavy for my tastes, but shot very well. It would be great in one of the .400 flavors.

 

[Pine Marten]

For sale in the USA

Cogswell & Harrison .404 jeffrey

$2900.00 US
Cogswell & Harrison .404 jeffrey : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com


Ruger M77 Express Magnum 416 Rigby African

$2300.00
Ruger M77 Express Magnum 416 Rigby African : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

NOTE: This is the older one from late 1990s. All these were nicely finished, in figured blonde and chocolate, with really good sights and heavy barrels.
I had one in .375 H&H, which was too heavy for my tastes, but shot very well. It would be great in one of the .400 flavors.

Are they adequate for muntjac?

 

[JabaliHunter]

Keep the .270 as your culling rifle
Keep the 7mm mag as your long range rifle - it has a lot of flexibility with the heavier 175gr bullets too
Ditch the 30-06 and get a 9,3x62 as a medium range plains game rifle and boar rifle - works brilliantly with the 250gr Accubond (surprising BC) or TSX
Get the .416 you want for buffalo

 

[Essexsussex]

Are they adequate for muntjac?

Should be fine PM. I gather they were designed for CWD so interchangeable....ammo supply good, you will find some in your London gunshops. Less than £80 a box too.

 

[Kalahari]

Yeah, but that is a box of five!!!

David.