Rifles seized by police!

[Pedro]

Well, as has been said, Cumbria always seem to manage to do your renewals on time. Furthermore, they do give you a S7 cert in case there is some unforeseen delay. Can't see why others don't do it really.

To be honest, if I were to carry my cert everywhere with me when I go out with a rifle, and even more with the shotgun, firstly, it would soon look a total mess, even with a plastic cover, and, being me, I'd sooner or later lose it!

I think the new certificates are a good improvement over the old, but they're an opportunity missed. A card type certificate would be ideal, with a paper bit for ammo purchases etc.

 

[Heym SR20]

I have certificates readily available and photos of them in my iPhone, along with copies of my permission letters. Always make a point of letting landowner know when you are going out. And at renewal time keep hold of your tickets. They don't expire until their expiry date.

 

[The tramp]

So they know you have an FAC. You've told them it's off for renewal. That should be enough for them to take the serial numbers to check at a later date that those particular items are held legally. If not, they have your name, address, etc, etc. So they should let you go about your business or at worst, make you take them home and lock them up.

The public (us) should not be punished or inconvinienced due to their inefficiancies or lack of resources. When the insurance database fails to show your car as being insured they don't (in my experience) confiscate your vehicle.

Ahh, yes they do. If your car isn't on the MID (Motor Insurers Database) and you can't prove, there and then, either by a certificate of insurance, cover note, or call to your insurers, they can, and will take your vehicle, and charge you ridiculous amounts of money for the removal and storage. Even as a motor trader driving on a trade policy, you must add any vehicle you have control of for more than seven days to the MID, and you are advised to keep a cert of ins on you while driving under the policy. I nearly found this out the hard way as my M3 didn't show on the database, and they wouldn't let me go 1/2 mile home to get my docs, thankfully, the call made by the officer confirmed I was covered, and I was on my way, late, but at least I still had the car.

Pete

 

[widu13]

So they know you have an FAC. You've told them it's off for renewal. That should be enough for them to take the serial numbers to check at a later date that those particular items are held legally. If not, they have your name, address, etc, etc. So they should let you go about your business or at worst, make you take them home and lock them up.

Unworkable, don't be daft. And 2 mins after being allowed on their way, the .22LR licensed FAC holder decides to try out their mates .50BMG totally underestimating it and kill some poor passer by with it after the Old Bill found them in possession of and told them "to go home and they would sort it out later".

The public (us) should not be punished or inconvinienced due to their inefficiancies or lack of resources. When the insurance database fails to show your car as being insured they don't (in my experience) confiscate your vehicle.

Erm, yes they do and there's a hefty Fixed Penalty Ticket too! Here's a solution...carry the damned bit of paper that you are required to (by law)!

 

[8x57]

"Here's a solution...carry the damned bit of paper that you are required to (by law)!"

But theres the rub Widu, you are not actually required to carry them by law. Read the act and the guidance carefully. Yes It does say that an officer may seize firearms but it doesn't say he has to, only that he may do so if he can't establish if you are legally entitled to possess such items. Now many people may feel happier actually carrying their certificates while others may make other arrangements for identifying themselves and that they legally possess firearms fearing loss or damage to the actual document.

My feeling is that the original poster was perceived as failing the attitude test or that he had failed to send his renewal in early enough and the FAC had expired. Untill he gets back and updates us it will all be speculation. Mind you I think he was being a little hopeful trying to contact the firearms department on a Sunday morning, not even I expect that department to be open seven days a week.

 

[rabbitter]

Here's a solution...carry the damned bit of paper that you are required to (by law)!

My original post was a bit light-hearted, but it is not always possible to have your FAC with you. Note this on the new form 202:


Note: The certificate to be varied must be enclosed with this form


I would hope that if I am stopped by the police while my cert is away that I would be able to get the police to accept a copy taken beforehand and/or at least make a PNC check. But, technically, I will not be able to produce my original cert for a couple of months at a guess.

regards


Ian

 

[widows son]

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Here's a solution...carry the damned bit of paper that you are required to (by law)![/QUOTE]

There is no requirement to carry it by law in the uk .

 

[jamross65]

There is no legal requirement to have your certificate with you when in possession of your firearms. That said, it leaves the police the option and right to seize the weapons should they have no way of confirming either who you are, or indeed if a certificate is in force for you. That difficultly will likely arise when out of office hours are relevant because even although the details are kept on a system accessible 24hrs a day, it still has to be proved you are who you say you are, if that makes sense? In other words do you carry any other photo ID twitch you all the time? Because if you say yes, then you'd be as well also carrying your FAC!

If you apply within the suggested period of notice laid down by the issuing authority, and they cannot process the application within that time, then I would suggest they would be obligated to issue a temporary authorisation to allow your continued possession until new FAC is issued.

If however, your application for renewal goes in outwith that asked for period, then they are under no obligation to issue a temporary authorisation and would require you to lodge the firearms with an RFD until the certificate is renewed. The period of time between your old FAC expiring and the new one bing issued would mean you are illegally in possession of firearms.

In other words, no issuing authority is obligated to issue a temporary certificate, unless the fault in delay is solely theirs.

I personally cannot see how the two examples given above, of local forces stating no action will be taken if the police cannot renew the application within the time they have asked for supersedes the law where its clear that you must be in possession of a valid FAC to posses said firearms. I am guessing they are referring to 'reasonable excuse' as covering that issue. However, I am doubtful if reasonable excuse would be acceptable. Reasonable excuse allows for example, a spouse being in short term possession say after the death of the holder, or a member of the public finding a weapon and taking it with them to hand in, plus numerous other examples. An admin issue I think would be pushing that as a reason...

As for stopping vehicles, there are several reasons and examples for the police having the authority to stop the vehicle and obtain drivers, or occupants details. Generally the power to search the vehicle may come from other legislation other than that originally used to enforce stopping the vehicle in the first place.

As for random stop checks of vehicles??????? Mmmmmmm bit of a grey area. However, construction and use offences i.e. a light out or even driving with fog lights on allows a stop and indeed a requirement to be breathalised. Even in those circumstances though, would the police not be remiss in their duties to not make enquiries about guns if they are seen in the vehicle?

 

[widu13]

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Here's a solution...carry the damned bit of paper that you are required to (by law)!

There is no requirement to carry it by law in the uk .

Semantics, you are required to produce it on demand.

Firearms Act 1968 s48(1)

“A constable may demand, from any person whom they believe to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shotgun, the production of their firearm certificate, or, as the case may be, their shotgun certificate.”

 

[jamross65]

There is no requirement to carry it by law in the uk .

Semantics, you are required to produce it on demand.

Firearms Act 1968 s48(1)

“A constable may demand, from any person whom they believe to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shotgun, the production of their firearm certificate, or, as the case may be, their shotgun certificate.”[/QUOTE]


They can demand it Widu, but your under no requirement to produce it, as in committing an offence. Obviously the consequences of being unable to do so could cause a fair amount of inconvenience, as has been demonstrated on this thread....

 

[Pedro]

The point is, generally, if you're stopped by the police with your guns and it's obvious that they are legally owned and you aren't doing something illegal with them, there's no problems. If you want to carry your certificates, copies of them, photos of them or whatever to feel more secure then more power to your elbow and it may well oil the wheels of officialdom. Not worth arguing over really.

The continued silence from the OP however makes me, for one think that there's a weenie little vital bit missing from his scenario. Maybe his certificate had expired. Maybe the location where he was lamping was, permission-wise a bit dodgy. Or something...

 

[Wardenward]

Police officers do not need any sort of licence to posess a firearm in these circumstances, no more than your FEO does.

Any shotgun or firearm certificate holder is automatically entered on the Police National Computer and all serial numbers of your weapons are held on whichever computer system your local force is using. Thus all they had to do is ask you for your name and DOB and your FAC number would have shown up and then they could have cross referenced this against the serial numbers of your weapons. Even expired certifiactes will show on PNC I think.

I guess the officers on the night either could not prove your identity or could not access the relevant computer systems to double check your validity to be in possession of them?

 

[teabag_46]

Semantics...... semantics..... semantics...

23.11. Section 48(2) of the 1968 Act provides a constable the power to seize weapons and ammunition in cases of non-compliance, the constable may also require the person to immediately declare his full name and address.

Perhaps, in order to put a stop to these discussions on semantics, we could all re-acquaint ourselves with the HO Guidelines, and for this particular discussion, Chapter 23, which can be found on page 185 of the 2013 version.

Chapter 23 makes it quite clear that a PO has THE POWER to demand your paperwork, and/or firearms/ammunition if they have reason to believe that a crime has been, or may be about to take place, or for the protection of others. It also states quite clearly that they have THE POWER to detain you without a warrant, if they believe a crime has been committed.
NOWHERE does it mention (photo)copies of your paperwork - somebody could copy their licence in the morning, it (the licence) could be revoked and collected in the afternoon, and the copy produced to an officer making a random stop in the evening.

 

[DJC]

243-T3 have you now got your rifle,s back as the way I read your thread you could not produce your paperwork on Saturday night come Monday morning the officer who took them from you should have be able to check out your story that you sent it to be renewed .end of story guns now returned .but as you have not you replied telling the SD site that they have been returned to you safe and in good condition there must be something your not letting onto please update to how things are going I can't stand the all this waiting

 

[willyroe]

Hi all,

I was out lamping sat night and got pulled over by west Mercia police in a random check, the checked my truck over and was all ok, they saw the rifles in the back and decided to do a check on them , I am currently in prosser of a renewal and the turned around and said I have no licence and said they are going to take rifles off me and take back to Hereford police station!
Can they do that ? Ie : should they of sent someone to collect them who had a licence to carry firearms?
also I thought you can still use rifles whilst going through a renewal?

Any my help be great

thanks

matt

sounds like a non-contentious situation and no harm done but maybe you gave the wrong answer. Should you have said, "yes i do have valid fac for the rifle(s) but it is with your firarms officer for renewal".

From other quotes it sounds like they are permitted to take them but i suppose it depends on 1) the cops were just bored, 2) there was tension during conversations??

 

[Steve7046]

I really don't see what the problem is with carrying your certificate when out, other than helping you happily along your way still in possession of your firearms should you happen to be stopped by the police for some reason, it would also make threads like this far shorter as well!!!

 

[Taff]

+1 apart from you can,t carry it if it's in for renewal.

 

[6mmAI]

I don't think the whole truth has been told, as he has been on, but hasn't commented to keep us all informed,
Join Date
09-10-2012Last Activity
Yesterday 19:12

so why is the op not letting us know how its going......

 

[Tommy Kaira]

Ahh, yes they do. If your car isn't on the MID (Motor Insurers Database) and you can't prove, there and then, either by a certificate of insurance, cover note, or call to your insurers, they can, and will take your vehicle, and charge you ridiculous amounts of money for the removal and storage. Even as a motor trader driving on a trade policy, you must add any vehicle you have control of for more than seven days to the MID, and you are advised to keep a cert of ins on you while driving under the policy. I nearly found this out the hard way as my M3 didn't show on the database, and they wouldn't let me go 1/2 mile home to get my docs, thankfully, the call made by the officer confirmed I was covered, and I was on my way, late, but at least I still had the car.

Pete

We got stopped loads of times because our old trade policy provider never updated the MID. The worst we ever got was

Copper: "We've stopped you because you're not insured"
My Missus: "Yeah I am, it's a trade policy"
Copper: "Oh OK, give them a call then. Bye!" and drove off. Not proof of ID shown, should have come up on their system as me, not her. No cover note or certificate shown.

They can take the car like they can take the guns...but it really should be a last resort. If they know you have an FAC them really they should just give you a lecture on carrying it with you and leave it at that.

Having said that, without being there I can't say how this conversation went. HOW you deal with the police is usually the problem.

It reminds me of this :

Obviously not literally but you get the idea.


ETA: I should point out I carry my original certificate with me just in case. However, if it's off for renewal or variation I still shoot. I was told by the Firearms licensing officer that I had to send the licence in and that I should make sure I had enough ammo to last me as it could be a while before it comes back and it wouldn't be good if I ran out. I was even told "if stopped you can tell them your licence is with us". Obviously, I know realise that the police often don't know the law they are advising on.

Everyone should remember that if you're out shooting or the guns are locked up at home, you are still "in possession" of them so do the guys saying 'carry it with you' go to the police station and switch the old for the new rather than posting it in? Genuine question.

 

[The tramp]

Everyone should remember that if you're out shooting or the guns are locked up at home, you are still "in possession" of them so do the guys saying 'carry it with you' go to the police station and switch the old for the new rather than posting it in? Genuine question.

Yes, I go in for variations etc, because I'm out the door within (easily) 20 mins with a fresh ticket. The only time I've done a postal variation, I was told to keep hold of my ticket until the new one is brought to me.

Pete