there were 4 of us coming from LudlowLudlow
S-class shoot Bisley Sept 28th
- Thread starter Oaken
- Start date
8x57
Distinguished Member
What you are talking about there is guests who do not hold firearms certificates not FAC holders. If you read on in the rules you will find mention of other guests who already hold firearms certificates or are members of other home office approved clubs.
Any one who does not possess a certificate of competence shooting on an MOD range (Bisley counts as one) which is issued by a club chairman will have to be supervised.
JabaliHunter
Well-Known Member
Just a question - what is the rationale for no sighters at 500 and 600? It means you would have to know your elevation changes beforehand, which seems at odds with the ethos of getting sporting rifle shooters who may not have target shooting experience to participate/compete.
For heaven's sake don't comment on or question the course of fire - look what happened to me!
Sorry to present a contrary point of view, but I sympathise with the Chairman.
Guest days are one thing, where there is required to be a connection between the club and the guest, but as far as I know, something with the appearance of an open invitation to all comers is another. And not permitted, unless they also meet other requirements, e.g. being a full member of an HO approved club. Or personally known to a member.
Ambiguity between competition, target shooting (which is still target shooting whether or not there is an element of competition), and a "zeroing opportunity" would be a concern too.
Then discussion about the use of S5 ammo could cause further concern.
If I were a club chairman, I would also be concerned where this type of activity was leading.
The constitution of my club does not mention organising ongoing opportunities for sporting rifle owners to bypass the strictly controlled rules and safeguards legislated by the Home Office for Target Shooting.
My club doesn't do "guest days". But anyone with a genuine interest is most welcome to visit (advance notice please, there are checks that have to be made) and attend as a guest four times for free before deciding whether to apply for membership.
Which perhaps is a mechanism that could be used here.
Sorry to be a wet blanket.
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Sorry, I don't have time to wade through that lot right now. Can you be more location specific?
Sharpie, the NRA legal representative that I spoke to on Tuesday told me, directly, that the safest legal place to zero, and practice with, a sporting rifle, with expanding ammunition, is on an HO approved rifle range with a safe backstop ie. Bisley.
This stuffy attitude that Bisley is only for shooting targets with target rifles and allowing those wretched sporting rifles through the gate is a jolly poor show, is an archaic attitude that is killing the NRA.
My club committee are enthusiastic about S-class getting off the ground and if using our allocated guest days is the way to do it then so be it.
Perhaps you have misunderstood.
I was playing devil's advocate to show you how presenting a fait accompli to your club committee might be looked at askance.
Get your ducks in a row and they may see the potential and opportunities. I hope they do.
Read that again, carefully, and think about what might lie beneath.
What positive suggestions did said representative put forward to advance your cause and facilitate the competition/practice/zeroing ?
I have no time for the archaic attitudes of some TR enthusiasts, if you came to my club I'm sure you would have a hoot. Everyone is welcome, we don't take ourselves too seriously.
I am sorry that there has been a hitch, but I do hope you will persevere. Good luck.
Wrens Mews
Well-Known Member
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117803/approval-rifle-pistol-clubs.pd
Rup
I would suggest para 11 of the above link.
Rup
I would suggest para 11 of the above link.
8x57
Distinguished Member
+1 paragraph 11 in https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...a/file/117803/approval-rifle-pistol-clubs.pdf is the section that I eluded to in earlier posts as being the relevant section.
Also just to re-confirm that shooters would need to have the necessary condition on their certificate that will allow them to take part.
I think the main misunderstanding so far has been what some clubs or club officials regard as guest days. Most, not all, clubs have arrangements whereby shooters who already hold firearm certificates and/or who are members of another Home Office approved club may shoot with the host club usually upon payment of a range/green fee. The host club makes allowance for this when they pay their affiliation fee to the NRA. There is no need to notify anyone in advance of the guest shooters attendance and they effectively become a member of the host club for the day as regards insurance etc. Some clubs however limit the number of days on which fellow shooters who are not club members are invited to shoot with the club and refer to those days when guests are invited as guest days.
"Guest days" proper were something that was introduced post Dunblane and was to allow clubs to facilitate persons or organisations to shoot with a host club on up to 12 occasions a year. The shooters do not normally hold firearms certificates and are used by many clubs as recruitment days or just an opportunity for family and friends to experience shooting while complying fully with the law. On these occasions the guests must be known to the club or must belong to an organisation through association. In this case the firearms department in the area where the guest day event is being held must be given 48 hours prior notice. Suitable disclaimers indicating that the participant is not barred from possessing firearms and ammunition must be signed.
Also just to re-confirm that shooters would need to have the necessary condition on their certificate that will allow them to take part.
I think the main misunderstanding so far has been what some clubs or club officials regard as guest days. Most, not all, clubs have arrangements whereby shooters who already hold firearm certificates and/or who are members of another Home Office approved club may shoot with the host club usually upon payment of a range/green fee. The host club makes allowance for this when they pay their affiliation fee to the NRA. There is no need to notify anyone in advance of the guest shooters attendance and they effectively become a member of the host club for the day as regards insurance etc. Some clubs however limit the number of days on which fellow shooters who are not club members are invited to shoot with the club and refer to those days when guests are invited as guest days.
"Guest days" proper were something that was introduced post Dunblane and was to allow clubs to facilitate persons or organisations to shoot with a host club on up to 12 occasions a year. The shooters do not normally hold firearms certificates and are used by many clubs as recruitment days or just an opportunity for family and friends to experience shooting while complying fully with the law. On these occasions the guests must be known to the club or must belong to an organisation through association. In this case the firearms department in the area where the guest day event is being held must be given 48 hours prior notice. Suitable disclaimers indicating that the participant is not barred from possessing firearms and ammunition must be signed.
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Slartibartfast
Active Member
11. The ban on day or temporary membership is to stop casual shooters being able to come in off the street and shoot. It should not be confused with properly organised guest days, competition shoots between clubs or competitions open to individuals who are not members of that club.
12. Examples of recognised outside organisations whose members may be guest members of approved rifle and muzzle-loading pistol clubs are scouts and guides, schools, Rotary clubs and Women’s Institutes. The duty to notify the police of guest days is laid on the club secretary. This may be delegated to the appointed liaison officer.
so although I am a FAC holder, member of BASC, I fall below the Women's Insititute. Well I can see why I have never bothered with target shooting.
I'm not sure you've quite read it right? The rules you're quoting don't AFAIK apply to FAC-holding non-members - though of course a club can within the law allow folk to shoot or not, as it pleases.
Target-shooting can be fun as I found out quite by accident when I joined a local (very target-competition-focussed) club as a zeroing-place, but caught the bug. However, if I wasn't a member (and this can, for very good reasons, be a rather tedious process for the applicant) apart from full-whack range-fees, I'd be limited to four visits per year as an FAC-holding visitor (rather than a non-FAC-holding guest).
Slartibartfast
Active Member
Well I give up trying to understand all this. Someone some where said NO. I have just tried to follow the comments and I know it's as clear as mud to me so this will be my last post. But it sounds from your comment that it should have been straightforward for Oaken as we were only going once. However it seemed to me that it would have been easier for Oaken to invite the WI.
Organising a non-standard shoot even on your club's home range can be a challenge. What Oaken is arranging is several levels of complexity beyond that, and all credit to him for pressing on with it.
In addition to all other complexities club officials, being the folk who take the responsibility for what is done in their club's name, may (as I commented) make whatever decisions they wish within the law as to who may or may not shoot in their club's name. This is not always convenient, but it is fair enough.
So if anything my comment should be read as suggesting that Oaken would have just as much difficulty inviting the WI as inviting you - even if the entire WI held FACs. And it still wouldn't be his fault.
8x57
Distinguished Member
Not quite Slartibartfast. The reason that they included this is so that all members of the group are known to each other and so are traceable. Members of the Stalking Directory for instance would in the main be unknown to each other. Your membership of BASC is in this case almost irrelevant despite the fact that BASC has an arrangement with the NRA.
As a general principle I think it would be fair to say that in this country it is legal to do anything unless there is a law against it. However if you think about it in respect of shooting you could almost say the opposite applies in this country. All shooting is outlawed unless there is an exemption in law or a legal permission such as a FAC that allows you to shoot.
This is particularly so with respect to Home Office approved rifle clubs. The rules and regulations that clubs have to comply to allow people to shoot are simply unbelievable and an absolute nightmare for club officials to understand and comply fully with. Unfortunately sometimes the rules are not fully understood or clubs and national associations complicate matters somewhat by introducing their own rules which over time get confused with law. Any open event hosted by a club at Bisley is particularly difficult in this respect. Not only does the club have to adhere to H.O. rules for clubs but they also have to adhere to the rules of both the NRA and the MOD not to mention insurance requirements and club rules that they have imposed on themselves.
To cut to the nitty gritty Yes it should be possible for a FAC holder who does not normally shoot with a club to shoot at Bisley as a guest of another club but it will be necessary to give it a great deal of thought before hand by both the host club and the shooter. Unfortunately so many obstacles and hurdles are placed in the way that the easier answer of No is normally given.
Thanks for your help and kind words. Any constructive advice is welcome.I am finding this all very frustrating, initially I thought it would be fairly strait forward, I also feel pretty bad for the guys that can't come, but those that take the responsibility have spoken and it is a NO to those without full NRA membership or those not known to the club membership.
At this late stage, we'll have to leave things as they are for the 28th, we have enough shooters for the lanes that are booked and unlikely to be able to book more at this late stage. We will also be working the markers to the max!!!
I will get to the bottom of this soon, certainly before the next event providing, of course, this one goes to plan.
Apart from the legal side, we have plenty to learn from this first S-class shoot at Bisley.
We are now fully booked providing everyone turns up !
Cheers
rup
At this late stage, we'll have to leave things as they are for the 28th, we have enough shooters for the lanes that are booked and unlikely to be able to book more at this late stage. We will also be working the markers to the max!!!
I will get to the bottom of this soon, certainly before the next event providing, of course, this one goes to plan.
Apart from the legal side, we have plenty to learn from this first S-class shoot at Bisley.
We are now fully booked providing everyone turns up !
Cheers
rup
have I missed some thing here if I have zeroing on ranges on my ticket and I am invited to shoot by a club on a range no law is broken (1to1 supervision on MOD ranges unless you have safety ticket) police do not have to be informed clubs make it hard the NRA do not help bisley is not an MOD range
8x57
Distinguished Member
Lister while I agree with much of what you say, because it shares the safety area with the surrounding MOD ranges Bisley is regarded to be a MOD range. Also you would find it very hard to justify or defend zeroing at 1,000 yards with a sporting rifle if you were taken to task on the matter so I can understand the club concerned being overcautious.
The main problem is possibly an unhelpful attitude by the NRA which unfortunately is not unknown. I wish that they would adopt a "Can Do" rather than a "Sorry Can't Do" approach to shooting. Surely it's in their own interests to encourage all forms of shooting?
I think that given more time and little bit more thought all the hurdles could have been overcome but with only a week to go it is probably a bit late in the day now to sort it out. I know personally how difficult it can be to arrange an open shoot on a club range for shooters who don't belong to a rifle club or normally shoot on ranges. I also know how a few silly or unguarded comments on a website by the unknowing who don't belong to a club can derail a carefully planned event frustrating months of work and planning.
At the end of the day you have to appreciate that be it the NRA, the MOD or even a club on their own range you will be a guest and they set the rules so you will have to abide by their rules, even if there is sometimes no logic to their rules.
The main problem is possibly an unhelpful attitude by the NRA which unfortunately is not unknown. I wish that they would adopt a "Can Do" rather than a "Sorry Can't Do" approach to shooting. Surely it's in their own interests to encourage all forms of shooting?
I think that given more time and little bit more thought all the hurdles could have been overcome but with only a week to go it is probably a bit late in the day now to sort it out. I know personally how difficult it can be to arrange an open shoot on a club range for shooters who don't belong to a rifle club or normally shoot on ranges. I also know how a few silly or unguarded comments on a website by the unknowing who don't belong to a club can derail a carefully planned event frustrating months of work and planning.
At the end of the day you have to appreciate that be it the NRA, the MOD or even a club on their own range you will be a guest and they set the rules so you will have to abide by their rules, even if there is sometimes no logic to their rules.
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Oracle
Well-Known Member
If you are a full member of either BASC or BDS you may already be a Full Member of their respective Rifle Clubs. These are Home Office Approved Rifle Clubs (affiliated to the NRA) in their own right. They have simplistic written constitutions based on the aims of "training and practice of members in the safe and accurate shooting of sporting rifles" They have several exemptions from some of the criteria normally required for other HO clubs, for example the requirement to inform the Chief Officer of new members. In addition you cannot cite full membership of BASC/BDS Rifle Club to establish "good reason" in order to acquire and use firearms/ammunition. I would suggest you contact your relevant shooting organisation and check. If you are a member of the club, hold an FAC but do not have a Shooter Certification Card for MOD controlled ranges you could lawfully shoot at Bisley, at an event arranged by another HO Approved club under direct 121 supervision. That should keep the NRA happy
S-class Bisley 28th September 2014
All places are now filled and, as posted on the forums, I'm afraid only full NRA members and those known to me and/or members of Wessex Rifles may shoot. My apologies if this excludes you and hope this will be sorted for the next one.
Please be on the firing point no later than 08:00 for range briefing, sqadding and paperwork.
Firing will start at 8:30 on Century Range - lanes 19/20 (tbc).
All rifles must be bagged with magazines and BOLTS REMOVED and placed well back from the firing point. If you have breach flags, please use them. "Be seen to be safe" with muzzle awareness being an absolute priority.
Hearing protection is mandatory.
We will be starting on lanes 19 & 20 at 300yds. Falling back to 500 & then 600. Be ready to shoot when your name is called, we need to keep things moving at all times - time is limited.
Postcode for Bisley is GU24 0PB
Follow the road through the grounds, take right turn between range office and Fultons gunshop. Turn right at end then left into the car park next to Century range.
On the firing point you will be called to "make ready" before the previous shooter has finished firing.
Please remove your gear quickly once the range officer has cleared your rifle.
You may then proceed to the next range back at 500 yards.
1000yds pm will be much more relaxed with time for calling and spotting shots etc.
Cheers
Rup
All places are now filled and, as posted on the forums, I'm afraid only full NRA members and those known to me and/or members of Wessex Rifles may shoot. My apologies if this excludes you and hope this will be sorted for the next one.
Please be on the firing point no later than 08:00 for range briefing, sqadding and paperwork.
Firing will start at 8:30 on Century Range - lanes 19/20 (tbc).
All rifles must be bagged with magazines and BOLTS REMOVED and placed well back from the firing point. If you have breach flags, please use them. "Be seen to be safe" with muzzle awareness being an absolute priority.
Hearing protection is mandatory.
We will be starting on lanes 19 & 20 at 300yds. Falling back to 500 & then 600. Be ready to shoot when your name is called, we need to keep things moving at all times - time is limited.
Postcode for Bisley is GU24 0PB
Follow the road through the grounds, take right turn between range office and Fultons gunshop. Turn right at end then left into the car park next to Century range.
On the firing point you will be called to "make ready" before the previous shooter has finished firing.
Please remove your gear quickly once the range officer has cleared your rifle.
You may then proceed to the next range back at 500 yards.
1000yds pm will be much more relaxed with time for calling and spotting shots etc.
Cheers
Rup
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