Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
Not sure what your ranting for . . . .I agree with everything you have written.
SD deer dog register
- Thread starter cookingfat
- Start date
Not sure what your ranting for . . . .I agree with everything you have written.
The mighty buck
Well-Known Member
sorry didnt mean to rant i just got a shock when i saw the comment on "what breeds should be eligible", although it does not apply to me as all my breeds are out and out pedigree hunting, shooting stalking breeds, it would just be a shame for it to become dog snobbery.
i was wondering also trying to set up a national register sounds like a bit of a nightmare, should we be finding out how many interested teams there would be in each area say :
Northen Scotland,
Cental East Scotland,
Central West Scotland
South East Scotland
South West Scotland
Northen England
Midlands
South East England
South West England
Wales
set up a very basic simple (a starting point) system in each area select a spokesman from each area then go from there joining the network once you find wht works in each area?
i may be totally wrong but i thought it would be easier to focus locally for a start.
ATB Tom
i was wondering also trying to set up a national register sounds like a bit of a nightmare, should we be finding out how many interested teams there would be in each area say :
Northen Scotland,
Cental East Scotland,
Central West Scotland
South East Scotland
South West Scotland
Northen England
Midlands
South East England
South West England
Wales
set up a very basic simple (a starting point) system in each area select a spokesman from each area then go from there joining the network once you find wht works in each area?
i may be totally wrong but i thought it would be easier to focus locally for a start.
ATB Tom
straightbetweentheeyes
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying don't use the register at all but bt is as stone says over emphasising things, if you have a dog that finds 99% of deer then good, should you wait for a tracking team because there is a 1% chance you may not find that beast? Only you can decide that...to think that anybody wants to wait 24hrs plus to come out with the dog is ludicrous, people who are on the register will come as soon as they can, if you want to try and find the deer on your own first then good for you go ahead. But it will be better for the tracking team if the trail had not been contaminated first. Uncontaminated trail = greater chance of beast being found. You are seriously missing the point here, people will come as soon as they can, and if that's not straight away and may be 24hrs or more after then you'd be pretty foolish to turn up with a dog that can only follow a say 12hr old trail successfully, that is why it has been suggested that any test should be 24hrs.. The sooner everyone starts pulling from the same end of the rope the better, no one is trying to be better than anyone else but there has to be a minimum standard to work from..
How many dogs at this current time in the UK will be able to follow a 24 hr track? There will be a few I agree but how far would this be from a person requiring the dogs help? Surely it would be better to encourage more people onto the register then progress training towards 24hrs.
Otherwise you will have a certain number on the register but I bet this wont cover most of the UK. If you have 2-3 people on the register in you locality you would be unfortunate if one of them couldn't respond quicker than 12 hrs.
Otherwise you will have a certain number on the register but I bet this wont cover most of the UK. If you have 2-3 people on the register in you locality you would be unfortunate if one of them couldn't respond quicker than 12 hrs.
straightbetweentheeyes
Well-Known Member
Very valid point Pete and I for one hope that there will be enough teams on the register to not have to wait, but I still think that there should be minimum standard and that has to be at worst case scenario level. There may not be teams up and down the country at the present that can track at this level, perhaps that is what people who want to be on the register should be aiming and training towards? We are all on the same team here and need to work together but we also need standards to work to.... I'd like to be a porn star but I ain't got a 14inch cock(unless you count the one on my head...) I couldn't care less wether someone has a Hanoverian, gwp, shitzu or a ****in hamster as long as it can do the job to the required standard..
Sorry I left off my previous post that I fully agree there should be a standard to get onto the register, otherwise who knows what service you would get if you required help. I think this should be a relatively 'easy' standard though, I'm sure I have seen Tony put 600m and 4hrs somewhere on this thread. This would be up for discussion obviously but you have to encourage people to sign up to get it moving. Then push standards up to 24 hrs until you have many people with good tracking dogs.
Its such a great idea to try and get going although its going to be a very long and bumpy road!
At the end of the day it will be worth the effort to stop potential pain and suffering of any deer.
Pete
Its such a great idea to try and get going although its going to be a very long and bumpy road!
At the end of the day it will be worth the effort to stop potential pain and suffering of any deer.
Pete
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Always knew you were inferior
There are a lot of good points stated but the time limits as bogtrotter says as I do should be asap and when looking at cost, it is expected to be free when someone takes out a client for X amount, X amount for shot, X amount for trophy, X amount for carcass and X amount for a missed shot. But then you will expect someone to spend years training a dog, purchasing, it vet bills etc and come and find it for free ?
Hi All.
Lot's of interesting and valid points please let me say again THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT ! it will not happen at all, without a standard of ability .
To try and answer a few points and please note i am not criticising any one or there views.
No one has said you must leave an animal 24/ 72 Hrs what was said is that they can be successfully tracked after this amount of time with the right team.
As for the Test sorry Pete you are completely wrong on this what is the point of a register full of dogs and owners that are not up to the job , more suffering is the only outcome and what will stalkers / police, anyone think . A team that has proven they can track a 24Hr old track with all the complications involved has a greater chance of success. A 3/4 hr test is nothing more than a puppy test FACT! please I am not being derogatory to anyone, and those that can do a 3/4Hr old track well done. Now you need to extend the age of you tracks and the distance because situations will arise when possibly 2/3 dogs have tried the track and failed so time keeps ticking on then the team arrives ?? OH! my dog has only done 3/4 hour tracks and not with a lot of other scent on top DER! who will look a fool and then the Register will fail . I am trying to explain in as few words as possible as each track will be different. As has been said you are all on the right wave length it's just we all need to talk and listen and to each other and not start putting in all the what if's and this won't work and I don't like that?.
As for each County each doing it's own thing No! it would just end up pulling it's self apart. It must be national for simplicity and yes it will take time to have enough teams to be as we would able to give say a max 3/4 hr wait. It will come if we can talk and agree to start ,with a set standard . Maybe a meeting soon would be a good thing but not if all it achieves is a big bun fight. We all agree in principal so it is up to us all to make it work, so try to think of ways to get you dog up to a 24 Hr min standard then you will be able to cope with most situations.
Regards WIDU.
Lot's of interesting and valid points please let me say again THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT ! it will not happen at all, without a standard of ability .
To try and answer a few points and please note i am not criticising any one or there views.
No one has said you must leave an animal 24/ 72 Hrs what was said is that they can be successfully tracked after this amount of time with the right team.
As for the Test sorry Pete you are completely wrong on this what is the point of a register full of dogs and owners that are not up to the job , more suffering is the only outcome and what will stalkers / police, anyone think . A team that has proven they can track a 24Hr old track with all the complications involved has a greater chance of success. A 3/4 hr test is nothing more than a puppy test FACT! please I am not being derogatory to anyone, and those that can do a 3/4Hr old track well done. Now you need to extend the age of you tracks and the distance because situations will arise when possibly 2/3 dogs have tried the track and failed so time keeps ticking on then the team arrives ?? OH! my dog has only done 3/4 hour tracks and not with a lot of other scent on top DER! who will look a fool and then the Register will fail . I am trying to explain in as few words as possible as each track will be different. As has been said you are all on the right wave length it's just we all need to talk and listen and to each other and not start putting in all the what if's and this won't work and I don't like that?.
As for each County each doing it's own thing No! it would just end up pulling it's self apart. It must be national for simplicity and yes it will take time to have enough teams to be as we would able to give say a max 3/4 hr wait. It will come if we can talk and agree to start ,with a set standard . Maybe a meeting soon would be a good thing but not if all it achieves is a big bun fight. We all agree in principal so it is up to us all to make it work, so try to think of ways to get you dog up to a 24 Hr min standard then you will be able to cope with most situations.
Regards WIDU.
straightbetweentheeyes
Well-Known Member
says the man with the smallest sporran in ScotlandAlways knew you were inferior
how about a meeting at the cla? Pretty central to the country this year at ragley and I'm sure we could find/arrange the use of a big enough tent/marquee...Great response as always Widu. This is going to take some time to get going just from the amount of response and views this thread has caused!
I fully agree that 24hrs should be the goal for all tracking dogs to achieve and then push on further than that. However, I reiterate my point that to get this register off the ground I don't think to many people will sign up if the standard is 24hrs purely because not many dogs will be trained to this standard. I mentioned 4 hrs purely because I'm sure I saw Tony mention it previously, I agree a 4hr test is what a puppy should be achieving so maybe it could be set at 10-12 hours maybe?
Do you not agree Widu that by setting the standard at 12 hours you would have a lot more people trying to get onto the register, therefore having more people on it means that if someone required a team there is a few they could ask to attend and he would get a team there not more than 12 hours after the shot?
On the point of Counties in your post I'm not sure if that was a response to what I wrote but I didn't mean counties should be seperate from each other that would never work, it needs to be country wide but have people crossing over counties to cover the UK as much as possible and having 2-3 available in certain localities.
Interested to hear your thoughts as your a lot more experienced than me!
Regards
Pete
I fully agree that 24hrs should be the goal for all tracking dogs to achieve and then push on further than that. However, I reiterate my point that to get this register off the ground I don't think to many people will sign up if the standard is 24hrs purely because not many dogs will be trained to this standard. I mentioned 4 hrs purely because I'm sure I saw Tony mention it previously, I agree a 4hr test is what a puppy should be achieving so maybe it could be set at 10-12 hours maybe?
Do you not agree Widu that by setting the standard at 12 hours you would have a lot more people trying to get onto the register, therefore having more people on it means that if someone required a team there is a few they could ask to attend and he would get a team there not more than 12 hours after the shot?
On the point of Counties in your post I'm not sure if that was a response to what I wrote but I didn't mean counties should be seperate from each other that would never work, it needs to be country wide but have people crossing over counties to cover the UK as much as possible and having 2-3 available in certain localities.
Interested to hear your thoughts as your a lot more experienced than me!
Regards
Pete
The mighty buck
Well-Known Member
lets talk about training days, do you have any one in mind that could set up and run days up and down the country so as there were enough coarses to cover demand? i only ask as i started a previous thread about available training days, i have read a lot of books but a hands on practical day with tutors who have dogs that can work a 24hr + trail would be a great way of taking our dogs that can find the simple trails on to the next level. atb Tom
Wingers243
Well-Known Member
A national scheme for tracking and recovering wounded deer is better than a good idea, its a necessity that I hope in time will become well established. This is especially the case with an increasing number of wild boar in the UK where there is a serious risk to public safety if a wounded animal is left un-recovered. If a person was ever attacked or killed by a wounded boar the entire shooting community would be up for some seriously bad times and I fear for those who are not for qualification and training, if nothing else there is likely to be an increased requirement for that.
Undoubtedly this will start small with some dedicated people who are prepared to train their dogs to the required standard and learn how to track wounded animals correctly so the stand the best chance of finding the lost animal. Not only that, they will likely do it for free unless you want to give them something. As for professionals who charge for the wounded beast, i'm sure they will get the service for free as well if they do not have a dog of their own. The majority will be gentlemanly enough to cover the attending handlers expenses voluntarily and the remainder might just realise it is to their long term benefit to do so. They may even write into their contract that any wounding will result in a tracker being called at the client's expense perhaps? If neither of those apply they are unfit to take clients.
I am quite sure that this will take off if given a chance and hopefully with a slow movement away from the general response to a wounding "I must have missed". I expect that as many people who, in their unfortunate circumstances at the time, see a well trained dog work might well be inspired to train their own dog to the required standard for their own purposes but also to join a group to assist other that may not be able to have their own dog for whatever reason.
When it comes to a standard to be recorded on the tracking register I have to say a track of least 24 hours old is absolutely necessary. That would cover the majority of situations. In its fledgling times, it is so important that a dog, when called upon (and that might quite reasonably be 12 - 18 hours after the event taking account of all the circumstances that it has a good chance of finding the animal otherwise the scheme will be unsatisfactory and unused. Ironically, the best way of growing the scheme would be to have a higher standard at the start and when the scheme grow to the point where coverage means dogs are available more quickly, it could be reduced without necessarily causing harm to the scheme, although I think that would be a backwards step on the whole. It is surely down to the tracker to decide if the wounding he has been called out to is within his capability or not, and if not call in someone else on the register who may be much further away but even so, will be able to arrive and when they do, have a dog that has the best chance of finding the animal. That also goes for the stalker that has his own dog that "finds 99% of the deer i have asked him to". It must be down to them to say that a particular problem requires assistance and that, in reality, it would be better to wait 48 hours for a dog with proven ability in finding a deer with a particular wound and may have a 90% chance of finding the animal rather than rushing in and trying themselves with a dog that only has a 10% chance when in the process they have spoiled the scent and reduced the other dog's chances. Improving the odds of recovery must be the primary consideration no matter how unpalatable it may be to have to wait.
How about this for an idea for the future: Every person granted an FAC and conditioned for deer or boar must make a compulsory payment of £100 per year and join their local tracking group that will provide follow up services in that area free of charge at the point of requirement. Obviously if you are a tracker within that group you will obtain your authority free of charge. This would be administered by the police (who may call on the service free of charge for RTA's etc in return for the administration) and paid by direct debit to the regional tracking group from which each tracker may recover their expenses. If you don't pay, your authority to shoot deer and boar would be revoked by default.
Undoubtedly this will start small with some dedicated people who are prepared to train their dogs to the required standard and learn how to track wounded animals correctly so the stand the best chance of finding the lost animal. Not only that, they will likely do it for free unless you want to give them something. As for professionals who charge for the wounded beast, i'm sure they will get the service for free as well if they do not have a dog of their own. The majority will be gentlemanly enough to cover the attending handlers expenses voluntarily and the remainder might just realise it is to their long term benefit to do so. They may even write into their contract that any wounding will result in a tracker being called at the client's expense perhaps? If neither of those apply they are unfit to take clients.
I am quite sure that this will take off if given a chance and hopefully with a slow movement away from the general response to a wounding "I must have missed". I expect that as many people who, in their unfortunate circumstances at the time, see a well trained dog work might well be inspired to train their own dog to the required standard for their own purposes but also to join a group to assist other that may not be able to have their own dog for whatever reason.
When it comes to a standard to be recorded on the tracking register I have to say a track of least 24 hours old is absolutely necessary. That would cover the majority of situations. In its fledgling times, it is so important that a dog, when called upon (and that might quite reasonably be 12 - 18 hours after the event taking account of all the circumstances that it has a good chance of finding the animal otherwise the scheme will be unsatisfactory and unused. Ironically, the best way of growing the scheme would be to have a higher standard at the start and when the scheme grow to the point where coverage means dogs are available more quickly, it could be reduced without necessarily causing harm to the scheme, although I think that would be a backwards step on the whole. It is surely down to the tracker to decide if the wounding he has been called out to is within his capability or not, and if not call in someone else on the register who may be much further away but even so, will be able to arrive and when they do, have a dog that has the best chance of finding the animal. That also goes for the stalker that has his own dog that "finds 99% of the deer i have asked him to". It must be down to them to say that a particular problem requires assistance and that, in reality, it would be better to wait 48 hours for a dog with proven ability in finding a deer with a particular wound and may have a 90% chance of finding the animal rather than rushing in and trying themselves with a dog that only has a 10% chance when in the process they have spoiled the scent and reduced the other dog's chances. Improving the odds of recovery must be the primary consideration no matter how unpalatable it may be to have to wait.
How about this for an idea for the future: Every person granted an FAC and conditioned for deer or boar must make a compulsory payment of £100 per year and join their local tracking group that will provide follow up services in that area free of charge at the point of requirement. Obviously if you are a tracker within that group you will obtain your authority free of charge. This would be administered by the police (who may call on the service free of charge for RTA's etc in return for the administration) and paid by direct debit to the regional tracking group from which each tracker may recover their expenses. If you don't pay, your authority to shoot deer and boar would be revoked by default.
Hi Pete,
I fully understand you wishing to see a lot of people on the register and your reasons. That said what is it ever going to be worth if over night we let hundreds of dogs on that are unable to track in difficult circumstances. As in earlier posts those who wish to join the register have to prove that they both members of the team are capable of tracking when others have already failed. This is not being elitist or trying to stop anyone joining, or putting hurdles in the way just for the hell of it.
Look at the amount of posts and posters + those who are looking in because they know this is a good thing for all, but mostly, for Deer.
We must not rush in and start something that is half cock, it needs to have a high standard, high values and be completely trustworthy. Those that have dogs that are capable of 3/4 Hr tracks that's great keep training you now can have a goal. I and others on here know that a dog that can do 24hr tracks all weather, all terrain and with all the associated problems stands a chance, settling for less is not worth the effort.
As for Counties I understand what you ment but we need to start with a meeting, a code of practice and then most importantly some suitable individuals to run things
let us walk before we run or it will end up flat on it's face. So how about all those interested even the sceptics express an interest in a meeting to start with.
Regards WIDU.
I fully understand you wishing to see a lot of people on the register and your reasons. That said what is it ever going to be worth if over night we let hundreds of dogs on that are unable to track in difficult circumstances. As in earlier posts those who wish to join the register have to prove that they both members of the team are capable of tracking when others have already failed. This is not being elitist or trying to stop anyone joining, or putting hurdles in the way just for the hell of it.
Look at the amount of posts and posters + those who are looking in because they know this is a good thing for all, but mostly, for Deer.
We must not rush in and start something that is half cock, it needs to have a high standard, high values and be completely trustworthy. Those that have dogs that are capable of 3/4 Hr tracks that's great keep training you now can have a goal. I and others on here know that a dog that can do 24hr tracks all weather, all terrain and with all the associated problems stands a chance, settling for less is not worth the effort.
As for Counties I understand what you ment but we need to start with a meeting, a code of practice and then most importantly some suitable individuals to run things
let us walk before we run or it will end up flat on it's face. So how about all those interested even the sceptics express an interest in a meeting to start with.
Regards WIDU.
straightbetweentheeyes
Well-Known Member
Well strike me down with a feather! Exactly the point have have been trying to get across, just written far more intelligently! Not to sure about paying any money to the police though... Or any money at all for that matter the police need to keep they're own house in order before we am them to administer anything else! The service should be free, if stalker or client wishes to cover fuel costs of the tracking team if the beast is recovered then that is they're prerogative and likewise if the tracker chooses to accept the 'goodwill' gesture that would be up to them..
straightbetweentheeyes
Well-Known Member
+1 as I already suggested how about the cla at ragley?
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Spot on Wingers....
Jessie,CLA is no option for me.
No other game fair but a meeting between interested parties alone in a venue not at a game fair......
A fine post winger 243.
Jez the police is just an idea and the £100, this is what is required , INPUT ! and I know this is a good thing as do you. W, 243 ' post is as you said very well put. As I have said we must start this right from the start.
As for a meeting it has to be at a venue not involved with any thing else no game fairs , shows , or pub's. Look at the map of the UK how about somewhere near M1 / A1 and Sheffield to York area . Even distance for those that are north of the border and you southerners ?.
Regards WIDU.
Jez the police is just an idea and the £100, this is what is required , INPUT ! and I know this is a good thing as do you. W, 243 ' post is as you said very well put. As I have said we must start this right from the start.
As for a meeting it has to be at a venue not involved with any thing else no game fairs , shows , or pub's. Look at the map of the UK how about somewhere near M1 / A1 and Sheffield to York area . Even distance for those that are north of the border and you southerners ?.
Regards WIDU.
cookingfat
Well-Known Member
some good ideas and comments being posted by all,
I think that most people agree that this is not going to happen over night and that there needs to be a set of standards and training in place before any resister is set up.
not sure the CLA is a good place to hold any sort of meeting, but would be a good place to put names to faces, that part of the country would be a good place to have a meeting as it is central, maybe Stone could suggest a venue ?
I would be up for any meeting with like minded people.
I think that most people agree that this is not going to happen over night and that there needs to be a set of standards and training in place before any resister is set up.
not sure the CLA is a good place to hold any sort of meeting, but would be a good place to put names to faces, that part of the country would be a good place to have a meeting as it is central, maybe Stone could suggest a venue ?
I would be up for any meeting with like minded people.
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