Rhinoshot
Well-Known Member
true true....
SD deer dog register
- Thread starter cookingfat
- Start date
WIDU , Thanks for the reply I appreciate it, and agree with most of it, I do realise if I wound a beast in the evening
it will be next day before I can get someone to come of course thats realistic and thats what I would expect.
Where I have a problem and please don't take offence as none is intended is the time factor as I said I fully understand about it being the next day but you ask what my problem is with 24 hrs or even 48hrs
its simply this welfare if you want to promote tracking dogs from a welfare point of view rather than proving how clever the dogs are you must try to get the tracking team on the scene as soon as possible, I do understand
that that won't be easily achieved.
Now I wound a beast and a tracking team can't get to me for 24 hrs or longer, I am really going to think long and hard whether I am going to call them or not why?
I might have found it myself in that time.
Depending on where the wound is it may well died by the time a tracking team arrives
If its a light wound especially in the case of a hill red it could have travelled a considerable distance it could quite easily be three estates away, while I have no problem following onto a neighbouring property in hot pursuit of a wounded beast, there is absolutely no way that that 48hrs after the event, I am or asking anyone else to tramp across someones ground with a dog and a firearm maybe two estates and six or seven miles from where the shot was taken, that could cause all sorts of problems.
Now I know my neighbours would not have a problem with me saying I had a wounded beast and would be going onto their ground the next morning to look for it
But if I told them the same thing 48hrs after the event they would thing I was taking the P*** and I know for certain their second word would be off.
And last but not least after 24 hrs I wonder what the chances of finding it would be, not doubting the ability of the tracking dogs, just the fact that the trail has by that time been well and truly F****D by me and my dog
looking for it .
I believe in trying to end a wounded beasts suffering as quickly as possible, if I am expected to sit back and wait
24hrs or longer on a tracking team arriving, its not going to happen, I might not be successful in finding it but I am damned sure I am going to try.
I agree on everything else other than the time factor maybe if it takes off there might come a time when calling out a tracking dog might see you having one in a few hours or next morning in the case of a late evening shot
it will be next day before I can get someone to come of course thats realistic and thats what I would expect.
Where I have a problem and please don't take offence as none is intended is the time factor as I said I fully understand about it being the next day but you ask what my problem is with 24 hrs or even 48hrs
its simply this welfare if you want to promote tracking dogs from a welfare point of view rather than proving how clever the dogs are you must try to get the tracking team on the scene as soon as possible, I do understand
that that won't be easily achieved.
Now I wound a beast and a tracking team can't get to me for 24 hrs or longer, I am really going to think long and hard whether I am going to call them or not why?
I might have found it myself in that time.
Depending on where the wound is it may well died by the time a tracking team arrives
If its a light wound especially in the case of a hill red it could have travelled a considerable distance it could quite easily be three estates away, while I have no problem following onto a neighbouring property in hot pursuit of a wounded beast, there is absolutely no way that that 48hrs after the event, I am or asking anyone else to tramp across someones ground with a dog and a firearm maybe two estates and six or seven miles from where the shot was taken, that could cause all sorts of problems.
Now I know my neighbours would not have a problem with me saying I had a wounded beast and would be going onto their ground the next morning to look for it
But if I told them the same thing 48hrs after the event they would thing I was taking the P*** and I know for certain their second word would be off.
And last but not least after 24 hrs I wonder what the chances of finding it would be, not doubting the ability of the tracking dogs, just the fact that the trail has by that time been well and truly F****D by me and my dog
looking for it .
I believe in trying to end a wounded beasts suffering as quickly as possible, if I am expected to sit back and wait
24hrs or longer on a tracking team arriving, its not going to happen, I might not be successful in finding it but I am damned sure I am going to try.
I agree on everything else other than the time factor maybe if it takes off there might come a time when calling out a tracking dog might see you having one in a few hours or next morning in the case of a late evening shot
straightbetweentheeyes
Well-Known Member
Waiting 24-48 hrs is not about 'proving how good your dog is' it may be as soon as someone who knows what they are doing can get there.. If your at a point that you are considering the need to call a tracking team then the chances are the beast won't be found by you on foot, and you or anyone else trampling all over the trail will only make it harder for the dog to follow the correct trail.. If you are not confident that you and your dog can find a beast why risk ****ing it up for someone who may come after 24-48hrs and have a damn good chance of finding the beast otherwise? Surely it's better to wait than to steam in and **** it up for all concerned and the beast not be found at all?
Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
So whats the next step with the register then lads, who's going to take a lead, decide what standard is required, how testing will be conducted, what breeds will be eligible etc etc. . . .
Sorry but I will never agree that waiting 48 hrs before attempting to find a beast is acceptable never, not under any circumstances.
As a stalker in fact a hunter of any kind it is your obligation to try and end suffering to a wounded animal as soon as possible, you are not doing stalking any favours by advocating waiting for 24 -48 hrs before following up a wounded animal.
Where did I say I was not confident that me and my dog can't find a beast, I have pretty good success rate, however I don't claim that they are up to the same standard as a dedicated tracking dogs, and there may just be the odd time that it would be handy to be able to call one.
BT
very interesting last post and some good points
thou waiting 24 -48 hours may not suit every situ and certainly not in Scotland where you can go look
but down south where we can't cross boundaries the possibility of pushing a clipped Roe or a Munty across next door it may take 24 hours+ for it to return to an area it is familiar with and they do where it was originally shot at
same as fallow not that I am suggesting that is the norm but in cases like head shot deer I now will not rush in anymore and leave it 24 hrs
Can give time for the beast to settle down and easier to get near instead of pushing an andrenalin filled beast further away often at full speed ..also can help to concentrate the dog on the right beast also
But on another point you talk about having a darn good go at finding that lost beast with your dog and possibly ruining the track because you could not wait for a trained tracking team to arrive
possibly intime people such as your self may actually look at doing a bit more with your dogs so you could cope with such lost beasts
because if then you could not find it then a tracking team may not either as you would all be at the same sort of standard
just food for thought on that one mate
i used to think it was about gathering as quick as possible... Some times not always the case... As you know each situ presents a different angle ,approach and problem
very interesting last post and some good points
thou waiting 24 -48 hours may not suit every situ and certainly not in Scotland where you can go look
but down south where we can't cross boundaries the possibility of pushing a clipped Roe or a Munty across next door it may take 24 hours+ for it to return to an area it is familiar with and they do where it was originally shot at
same as fallow not that I am suggesting that is the norm but in cases like head shot deer I now will not rush in anymore and leave it 24 hrs
Can give time for the beast to settle down and easier to get near instead of pushing an andrenalin filled beast further away often at full speed ..also can help to concentrate the dog on the right beast also
But on another point you talk about having a darn good go at finding that lost beast with your dog and possibly ruining the track because you could not wait for a trained tracking team to arrive
possibly intime people such as your self may actually look at doing a bit more with your dogs so you could cope with such lost beasts
because if then you could not find it then a tracking team may not either as you would all be at the same sort of standard
just food for thought on that one mate
i used to think it was about gathering as quick as possible... Some times not always the case... As you know each situ presents a different angle ,approach and problem
Rhinoshot
Well-Known Member
I hope my sausage dog will not be excluded. I assume the next step would be to arrange a meeting in some quite spot.. function room of pub or village hall (midlands ish to be fair to all!) etc and for all serious and interested persons to attend, with the OP acting as chair and perhaps arranging it. Then sort out the bones of the operation from there. Perhaps setting a mandate if that is the correct terminology, getting some volunteers to take on certain committee roles ie training, website IT.. there was an offer from a sd member to put that together once off the ground i guess, treasurer.. as some donations may be forthcoming from enthusiasts or grateful stalkers if they are allowed to do so!, etc etc. im being careful now to not overstep the mark or upset anyone, but any serious organisation, even voluntary ones needs some financial backing. Websites can take time and in the future someones time may need to be paid for.. venues for meetings, AGMs, possible training days or venues... some money in a pot is always required at some stage to make sure admin time or activities are not out of the individuals pocket. I agree no charges to assist a stalker. I am not in a position to do any of the above, but still want to attend and be a member
until I have a dog that can meet the standard that is. so, lets sort this out..... when and where is the meeting to be?
Thanks Stone, some very good points there especially the one about the standard of the dogs.
cookingfat
Well-Known Member
Cadex, if you read all the post you will see that all on hear are prity much agreed that a resister is a long way off as yet, who's going to take the lead ? who knows, but someone with thick skin, probably some sort of committee would be best or let the major origination's run it with a DMQ type test, they would have to come to people who know for training because they don't have much of a clue, testing is already being done by the BMH society and myself in conjunction with the BDS, what breeds would be used well that could be a big debate between all parties, I favour a two tire system, two types of test open to all dogs and another open to dogs able to hold at bay or bring down an animal, this is something a smaller dog could not do,
hope this helps you a little.
Tony
I hope my sausage dog will not be excluded. I assume the next step would be to arrange a meeting in some quite spot.. function room of pub or village hall (midlands ish to be fair to all!) etc and for all serious and interested persons to attend, with the OP acting as chair and perhaps arranging it. Then sort out the bones of the operation from there. Perhaps setting a mandate if that is the correct terminology, getting some volunteers to take on certain committee roles ie training, website IT.. there was an offer from a sd member to put that together once off the ground i guess, treasurer.. as some donations may be forthcoming from enthusiasts or grateful stalkers if they are allowed to do so!, etc etc. im being careful now to not overstep the mark or upset anyone, but any serious organisation, even voluntary ones needs some financial backing. Websites can take time and in the future someones time may need to be paid for.. venues for meetings, AGMs, possible training days or venues... some money in a pot is always required at some stage to make sure admin time or activities are not out of the individuals pocket. I agree no charges to assist a stalker. I am not in a position to do any of the above, but still want to attend and be a member
so, lets sort this out..... when and where is the meeting to be?
Why the rush to sort a register out . surely that can only be a backward step
surely making sure that adequate training is in place first and available to all is the first step
not some quiet backroom thrashing out a deal
we need to learn to walk first before we can run
Rhinoshot
Well-Known Member
I said the bones.. not thrashing out a deal or even putting names on a register. No, but a meeting to discuss openly face to face is the way forward. you could do it in a front room of a pub also but with more difficulty. back room is always better in my experience
lol..... So, in my humble opinion, the way forward is indeed a meeting. A meeting to discuss 1/ the way forward. 2/ exactly what you said Stone, making sure adequate training is in place and available, 3/ 4/ 5/ and so it goes on. Maybe the main players in this already know each other and ability's with their dogs/hounds. So, maybe such a meeting is not required for a handful of people to put this in motion. On a larger scale I do not see how it can be put together by this forum! A meeting to put together a structure and discussing the way forward I do not think is running before walking. It will be the end result of lots of chatting here sooner or later. May as well be sooner.. IMHO. Perhaps the Sept deer for dogs day might be a good time to get together! Not too rushed and no deals made!
The mighty buck
Well-Known Member
Seriously? why on earth would you want to exclude one breed over another?????? if it has done its training and past all the tests then why on earth could it not be used to track a wounded suffering animal??? IMHO a 3 legged colie dog that has prooved itself could be used come on this is not crufts!!!!!
straightbetweentheeyes
Well-Known Member
your missing my point here.. I'm saying that you shoot a beast that legs it and think 'right I WILL wait 24-48hrs for some super duper tracking team to turn up' . Nor I am saying ou or your dog are not up to it, it was you who said about possibly ****ing a track up. Surely it's better to wait for a tracking team that stand a good chance of finding the beast turning up AS SOON AS THEY CAN than risk the beast not being found at all, which if the track is heavily contaminated I.e someone else walking all over it is a real possibility and the beast not being found at all??
Obviously animal welfare is paramount and that is the main reason for this suggested register in the first place no? Anyone who has a genuine interest in real tracking is not in it to be billy big bo!!ocks, they are in it because they love working They're dogs and want to help out where others may not be able to, at least the ones I know are anyway...
I get your point , but what I am saying is I am not going to wait 24 hrs for a tracking team when my own dogs
have probably found 99% of the deer I have looked for with them.
h
straightbetweentheeyes
Well-Known Member
Then you have no need to use the deer dog register and nothing to worry YOURSELF about have you.
sikamalc
Administrator
I would add here, that in principle I am all for tracking teams being set up. It can only be for the better of the sport we love, the well fair and benefit of the deer, and it is also morally and ethically right to try and find and cleanly dispatch any wounded beast.
Having said that, I can see there will be problems with such a scheme, but not to the point of where it would stop such a scheme being succesful. Many on here have a dog, I have, probably not trained to the standard that may be required, but he has worked well for me over the past 7 years and he has never failed to my knowledge.
Comments about waiting for several hours for a tracking team to arrive have some foundation. But if you do not have a dog, or do not have access to a dog, then this scheme will only be for the good. If you have a reasonable dog, and many do on here, then I dont think anyone is going to complain if you use the dog to retrieve the deer, its your choice and decision, and I would think that most if not all would have had the experience to know their own ground and what to expect of the situation. So lets not let this thread descend into an argument.
Having said that, I can see there will be problems with such a scheme, but not to the point of where it would stop such a scheme being succesful. Many on here have a dog, I have, probably not trained to the standard that may be required, but he has worked well for me over the past 7 years and he has never failed to my knowledge.
Comments about waiting for several hours for a tracking team to arrive have some foundation. But if you do not have a dog, or do not have access to a dog, then this scheme will only be for the good. If you have a reasonable dog, and many do on here, then I dont think anyone is going to complain if you use the dog to retrieve the deer, its your choice and decision, and I would think that most if not all would have had the experience to know their own ground and what to expect of the situation. So lets not let this thread descend into an argument.
I get your point , but my dogs have probably found deer the majority of the times they have been used.
I freely admit they are not up to the standards that are talked of here, I have one that can and has found deer the following morning, but I would be very doubtful of him on a trail as old as 24 hrs.
As WIDU SAID THIS IS ABOUT ENDING SUFFERINGS so are you suggesting that because my dog may fail on around 1% of my searches I should refrain from using him and wait on a tracking team coming when they can which maybe in 24 hrs time or even longer.
Should I leave 99% of wounded deer to suffer for a further 24 hrs on the chance of finding the 1% that I have failed on.
My point was if I have looked with my dog and failed, I have more than likely spoiled the trail for a tracking team
so would be unlikely to call one out.
Now if I could call out a team and have them on the spot say 12 hrs max I would be much more likely to take a back seat and leave it to the experts.
For me its all about the deer and while not happy with 24hrs I can understand why, but 48hrs and I read of following 72hr trails I can see little justification for taking that length of time before starting to track.
Possibly because of peoples commitments, but surely one of the aims of forming a register should be to try and develop a rapid response, and no I don't mean blue lights and sirens.
I fully support the idea of dedicated tracking teams, my one reservation is the time factor, I will say it again for me its all about DEER WELFARE.
When I read anything about tracking teams there seems to be to much emphasis on the ability of these dogs
to follow trails of 48hrs 72 hrs and so on, and while its good that these dogs can do that, and there may be a call for it from time to time.
I do believe you would get more support from the average UK stalker by trying to reduce the time that you take to answering a call out.
Just my thoughts on it , don't expect everyone to agree with me. they never do.
I freely admit they are not up to the standards that are talked of here, I have one that can and has found deer the following morning, but I would be very doubtful of him on a trail as old as 24 hrs.
As WIDU SAID THIS IS ABOUT ENDING SUFFERINGS so are you suggesting that because my dog may fail on around 1% of my searches I should refrain from using him and wait on a tracking team coming when they can which maybe in 24 hrs time or even longer.
Should I leave 99% of wounded deer to suffer for a further 24 hrs on the chance of finding the 1% that I have failed on.
My point was if I have looked with my dog and failed, I have more than likely spoiled the trail for a tracking team
so would be unlikely to call one out.
Now if I could call out a team and have them on the spot say 12 hrs max I would be much more likely to take a back seat and leave it to the experts.
For me its all about the deer and while not happy with 24hrs I can understand why, but 48hrs and I read of following 72hr trails I can see little justification for taking that length of time before starting to track.
Possibly because of peoples commitments, but surely one of the aims of forming a register should be to try and develop a rapid response, and no I don't mean blue lights and sirens.
I fully support the idea of dedicated tracking teams, my one reservation is the time factor, I will say it again for me its all about DEER WELFARE.
When I read anything about tracking teams there seems to be to much emphasis on the ability of these dogs
to follow trails of 48hrs 72 hrs and so on, and while its good that these dogs can do that, and there may be a call for it from time to time.
I do believe you would get more support from the average UK stalker by trying to reduce the time that you take to answering a call out.
Just my thoughts on it , don't expect everyone to agree with me. they never do.
mereside
Well-Known Member
This is where i see it not working ,I cant see many people waiting to try to find a beast as costs are too great for starters not only in the carcass but the trophy fees and everything that goes with it , all you can do is hope enough people jump on board to cover a wide area and this will take time as it gathers momentum so it wont be a quick fix overnight.
In the meantime i will carry on.
as i see it i have a dog which is coming on well which covers my syndicate ground for all members and home area and others who work dogs are around an hour from me so cover a large area. reading the posts of not using a proven dog ,after laying scent trails with no blood and getting the dog on these surely after some time you need to put the dog onto real situations and tasks and the more that you do the better the dog must become.
bogtrotter has some real valid points because unless you can get enough people on board to agree and also have the confidence to ring up and ask for a person to come out it will not work, the coment on post 95 just highlights this as at some point a stalker that uses a dog at some point will need the tracking team. so to make a comment of not needing this service has just made others think about being judged and making a choice not to ask for help.
Also saying dont go looking for the animal till a tracking team arrive most times the service wont be needed if people have dogs already
how many deer or boar sometimes still get lost even with a top dog in europe?.
I hope it gets off the ground as i want to be on board so keep it coming,atb wayne
In the meantime i will carry on.
as i see it i have a dog which is coming on well which covers my syndicate ground for all members and home area and others who work dogs are around an hour from me so cover a large area. reading the posts of not using a proven dog ,after laying scent trails with no blood and getting the dog on these surely after some time you need to put the dog onto real situations and tasks and the more that you do the better the dog must become.
bogtrotter has some real valid points because unless you can get enough people on board to agree and also have the confidence to ring up and ask for a person to come out it will not work, the coment on post 95 just highlights this as at some point a stalker that uses a dog at some point will need the tracking team. so to make a comment of not needing this service has just made others think about being judged and making a choice not to ask for help.
Also saying dont go looking for the animal till a tracking team arrive most times the service wont be needed if people have dogs already
how many deer or boar sometimes still get lost even with a top dog in europe?.
I hope it gets off the ground as i want to be on board so keep it coming,atb wayne
I have been reading this thread since the beginning as it is something I would be very willing to take part in having a young GWP (which seems like its going to be 5 years until his has calmed down.....slightly!). My personal opinion is that if this was to get off the ground surely the best way of doing that would be to get as many people as possible initially onto the register, this means that length and time of trails should be kept as low as possible, I have seen 600m and 4 hrs written somewhere, not that this should be the standard just an idea.
When you have quite a few people signed up it then may be possible to introduce a tiered system where you could have people available to follow longer older tracks. I don't think the register would work if you have to harder level to get onto it as not many people would be at this better standard.
The aim of setting a low entry standard would be to try and encourage people on who could crossover areas with other people to try and cover most of the uk thus reducing the time it would take to get a team to you if you required help, and another option if 1 team cannot make it for a while.
Also another point, you need to have a few teams in local areas (Counties maybe?) purely for financial reasons as if someone required help but was 4-5 hours away how much is this going to cost in fuel and would recreational stalkers be willing to pay this especially for a small carcass which is probably not suitable for human consumption anyway.
When you have quite a few people signed up it then may be possible to introduce a tiered system where you could have people available to follow longer older tracks. I don't think the register would work if you have to harder level to get onto it as not many people would be at this better standard.
The aim of setting a low entry standard would be to try and encourage people on who could crossover areas with other people to try and cover most of the uk thus reducing the time it would take to get a team to you if you required help, and another option if 1 team cannot make it for a while.
Also another point, you need to have a few teams in local areas (Counties maybe?) purely for financial reasons as if someone required help but was 4-5 hours away how much is this going to cost in fuel and would recreational stalkers be willing to pay this especially for a small carcass which is probably not suitable for human consumption anyway.
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BT
up to this point I think your over analising it a little
you from what I hav read are a very experienced deer stalker with I'm guessing a lot of deer under your belt
from that alone you will be fairly experienced at tracking wounded deer with or with out a dog
from my experiences alone 12 hours often is not enough time from initial shot to attempting tracking some one else's lost deer that they already hav spent time looking for
as still to much excess scent is in the air ground and foliage plus the deer may also need to settle and not into a restless type settle where it may get up and move on several times before it settles for good
the other point I don't think calling these teams experts is fair because they are not
they are just like any other working dog handler that try's to get the best out of their training and dog
from there you can atleast hav hope in their ability
they are just as committed to finding a lost beast as are you
but in fairness
thou you may of spent time covering the track .... You may not of ruined it
if you had marked the track along the way quite often where you lost that track a more focused dog may pick it up and that would include your own dog if you went home for an hour or so then come back again to restart it
giving the dog that little break may focus it's scenting ability once more
i do wish I had time to give a fuller response but I am at work on my iphone
as your contribution to this thread has been very interesting
up to this point I think your over analising it a little
you from what I hav read are a very experienced deer stalker with I'm guessing a lot of deer under your belt
from that alone you will be fairly experienced at tracking wounded deer with or with out a dog
from my experiences alone 12 hours often is not enough time from initial shot to attempting tracking some one else's lost deer that they already hav spent time looking for
as still to much excess scent is in the air ground and foliage plus the deer may also need to settle and not into a restless type settle where it may get up and move on several times before it settles for good
the other point I don't think calling these teams experts is fair because they are not
they are just like any other working dog handler that try's to get the best out of their training and dog
from there you can atleast hav hope in their ability
they are just as committed to finding a lost beast as are you
but in fairness
thou you may of spent time covering the track .... You may not of ruined it
if you had marked the track along the way quite often where you lost that track a more focused dog may pick it up and that would include your own dog if you went home for an hour or so then come back again to restart it
giving the dog that little break may focus it's scenting ability once more
i do wish I had time to give a fuller response but I am at work on my iphone
as your contribution to this thread has been very interesting
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