Bo Diddley
Well-Known Member
Blimey just posted a pearl of wisdom that was told to me years ago by a gunsmith on another thread, but the gist of it is that if a rifle is not accurate it's pretty worthless. So Caveat Emptor and all that.
Second Hand Rifles - some thoughts
- Thread starter Heym SR20
- Start date
For a hobby shooter, I've bought a lot of second hand rifles. If you buy from a reputable source, check the gun over yourself for obvious defects and wear etc, you should be fine. From memory I've never had a bad one.
Because of that, I've also sold a lot of second hand rifles. I like to chop and change fairly regularly, it's a hobby in itself for me. I've never sold a bad one either. It's just not cricket, although I appreciate not everyone thinks that way.
My advice would be that just like second hand cars, there's a lot of money to be saved compared to buying new. You just have to know what you're looking at, or find someone trustworthy to do the looking for you.
Because of that, I've also sold a lot of second hand rifles. I like to chop and change fairly regularly, it's a hobby in itself for me. I've never sold a bad one either. It's just not cricket, although I appreciate not everyone thinks that way.
My advice would be that just like second hand cars, there's a lot of money to be saved compared to buying new. You just have to know what you're looking at, or find someone trustworthy to do the looking for you.
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
rule number one,,,always assume someone has fu*ked with it or it has a problem (just like a 2nd hand car), then work backwards from there.
I have bought, probably near 30-50 used rifles. I'd say 90% had minor to major, or nondisclosed issues, some downright dangerous, ie. slam firing, firing on taking safety to 'unsafe' mode, rifles sold as the wrong calibres, rifles sold with wrong bolts giving massive headspace issues,, some cracked stocks, split buttplates, drill/tap holes clean of any threading, one had a bolt body physically broken,,and so on... all bought with the view of 'it's probably been fu*ked with', and paid a price in relation to that (either HOLTS sales or via RFD traders selling online). What I feel bad about are those buyers who purchase a rifle thinking it's 'probably' safe and good to go..
I 'have' found a few gold nuggets too, but you have to really ask a lot of questions and 'know' what to ask/what to look for.
I have bought, probably near 30-50 used rifles. I'd say 90% had minor to major, or nondisclosed issues, some downright dangerous, ie. slam firing, firing on taking safety to 'unsafe' mode, rifles sold as the wrong calibres, rifles sold with wrong bolts giving massive headspace issues,, some cracked stocks, split buttplates, drill/tap holes clean of any threading, one had a bolt body physically broken,,and so on... all bought with the view of 'it's probably been fu*ked with', and paid a price in relation to that (either HOLTS sales or via RFD traders selling online). What I feel bad about are those buyers who purchase a rifle thinking it's 'probably' safe and good to go..
I 'have' found a few gold nuggets too, but you have to really ask a lot of questions and 'know' what to ask/what to look for.
Great thread. I have brought a few old rifles back to life and accuracy just by cleaning, lots of it, about 10 soaking solvent sessions and 300 passes of a bronze brush. Eventually the patches come out clean, the rifling re-emerges and they are accurate again after a few fouling shots. Just be aware that some rifles that used to have open sights can have a cheek position that is too low for large modern telescopic sights. Keep them low or be prepared to fit a cheek riser pad.
You can even find very old rifles that haven't done much at all. I know a fair few folks who dont put a box of twenty through their rifles - Per Anum !
IF Its only the Barrel though ...? a new barrel on a good action and stock can work out a better rifle than an equivalent cost new rifle and dont get me going but many rifles just aint as well designed or made than they once where. Look at Tikka with their one size fits all actions ( just put a plug in the back) Now ! Yet the 595 was made with a metal drop box mag , action suited to each cartridge class .
We are alike and so far I have never bought a bad used rifle.
I don't through some of mine. I'm a hobby stalker with a few customers who get me in for pest control. I've got ten rifles. Not all of them get heavy use.
Why anyone would buy a T3 for a .223 size cartridge I'll never know?
marketing and past reputation of the brand , dont get me wrong they still shoot - just dont think they offer the value they used to now they are under the Berretta ownership , its been a slip backwards in all but marketing
Dare I say it, Sako is the same in my opinion
Light - as light (or lighter) than specific mini action guns (T3 is about the same as a Sako 75 action I, on average, depending on configuration).
Easily available. Accurate out of the box. Easy to get aftermarket parts.
Only real difference is the utterly inconsequential difference in bolt throw, and I have yet to meet anyone who missed a beast because it took them 1/1000th of a second longer to cycle the bolt.
So where is that weight saved? The stock? Other parts plastic instead of metal? I know it's not a lot but it all counts
Stock, the plastic bits, and (I think) reduced complexity of many components.
I’ve owned both Sako 75s and Tikka T3s.
I now only have T3s, and think they’re the better gun. Not in every way - I would like a top loadable mag and 3 position safety, and T3s could never be accused of being very pretty. But overall, I much prefer them. Certainly been able to get much better, more consistent, and easier to achieve accuracy out of the T3s I’ve owned.
Secondhand rifles are good for shooters on a tight budget like myself. I own six rifles (.243, .222, 7x57, .22LR and two .308s) all of which were bought secondhand quite cheap (roughly half price of new) without any test shooting or borescoping. Two of them have really rough bores (the .243 and .222) yet shoot ok. The others have decent bores and also shoot ok. By shooting ok I mean that when I am concentrating on trigger control etc. they shoot about 1MOA to 1.5MOA for a ten shot group which is good enough for muggins here. So on average, based on my limited sample of six secondhand purchases I would say there are more ok shooting secondhand rifles for sale in the UK than lemons so if money is tight I would say go for it as the odds are in your favour that you will get one that shoots ok.
Only ever been able to afford one gun from new and that was my HW80 some 26yrs ago.
All others secondhand.
6.5x55 Tikka T3 from Macleods of Tain
.222 Brno, .22 Brno, .22 Voere from my RFD (I swear he runs to his cabinet when I go to visit him, to see what he can tempt me with!)
.22 Brno and Baikal 12b shotgun off guys on here.
Apart from the Tikka which had barely 50rounds through it, all the others are well used but not abused and shoot as good as I let them shoot.
All others secondhand.
6.5x55 Tikka T3 from Macleods of Tain
.222 Brno, .22 Brno, .22 Voere from my RFD (I swear he runs to his cabinet when I go to visit him, to see what he can tempt me with!)
.22 Brno and Baikal 12b shotgun off guys on here.
Apart from the Tikka which had barely 50rounds through it, all the others are well used but not abused and shoot as good as I let them shoot.
I like the choice of top feeding if I want to. Also a metal mag that, most importantly, is flush fitting and with a decent capacity. I also find the stock more comfortable. The low bolt throw is nicer with a night vision add on.
They are heavy, I'll give you that. I guess it comes down to personal choice. All my T3's shot extremely well and I even beat a bloke shooting an AI in the club competition a few years ago with my mates T3 .222. The Sakos can outshoot me too though.
Good luck with that!A 2nd rifle is like a 2nd hand car.
1. I wouldn’t buy the car without a test drive.
2. I’d shoot the rifle before I bought it.
Simples
DG
Best
K
My advice, buying secondhand you have to know what to look for and have an idea of the market, just like anything (antiques spring to mind).
Will need an eye for detail to spot bargins and sometimes hard lessons from buying lemons. Been sold two rifles with chamber issues, one too long, one too short!
The former I rectified (long process involving buying a shot out rifle for the bolt) and the latter one the dealer 'sorted'. Both great shooters now.
Sadly marketing means that the 'name' is everything. No one wants a Howa/Remington/BSA/Parker Hale but a Tikka/Sako/Steyr/Blaser etc all seen to be faultless.
Howa 1500 are probably the best bang for buck rifle out there at the moment in the Blued Sporter (better still, the #1 lightweight) config with a sythetic stock. Very strong action, barrel good enough and synthetic stocks can also be found to suit.
Remington (moslty the Model 700) is seen as the 'problem child' as some rifles did not have good QC. Ironically, those are most likely to be the newer ones sitting on the dealer's shelves which are seen as the safe bet vs. a 1980-early 2000's one which has seen some use. Easiest rule of thumb is pick a Stainless action with the 'S' prefix and pay £500-300 and you are quids in. Avoid the 'RR' prefix serials due to crappy trigger, bedding area ruined by a QR code and bolt handles lacking primary extraction. Biggest benefit is aftermarket parts (stock, trigger, scope bases and even prefit barrels) which make them the choice of the tinkerer orbox opener gunsmith.
Anything chambered in .243 is somehow seen to be 'too small' yet a 100 grain 6mm bullet will kill anything in the UK. Maybe it will have a comeback as the 'expert's choice' much like the smaller shotgun gauges.
Judgement should be made based on the bullets your rifle can fire, and the 243/6mm will do it all just fine and at reasonable cost. However, this seems to have been abandoned in favour of the 6.5 something for the time being when the competition shooters now favour either the 6mm or 7mm instead.
A badly kept secret is that Remington used 1:9 1/4 twist barrels on most of their .243's/6mm's which shoot heavier bullets a tad better than most other manufacturer's barrels which are 1:10".
A borescope can now be had for £50 and plugged into a mobile phone, so no longer a specialist tool. Headspace gauges can also be purchased (although at greater expense). If an inspection of the rifle was refused, I would not buy the rifle.
However, I have bought a few rifles 'sight unseen' and not been too badly burnt. Do some research and remember to choose wisely!
Will need an eye for detail to spot bargins and sometimes hard lessons from buying lemons. Been sold two rifles with chamber issues, one too long, one too short!
The former I rectified (long process involving buying a shot out rifle for the bolt) and the latter one the dealer 'sorted'. Both great shooters now.
Sadly marketing means that the 'name' is everything. No one wants a Howa/Remington/BSA/Parker Hale but a Tikka/Sako/Steyr/Blaser etc all seen to be faultless.
Howa 1500 are probably the best bang for buck rifle out there at the moment in the Blued Sporter (better still, the #1 lightweight) config with a sythetic stock. Very strong action, barrel good enough and synthetic stocks can also be found to suit.
Remington (moslty the Model 700) is seen as the 'problem child' as some rifles did not have good QC. Ironically, those are most likely to be the newer ones sitting on the dealer's shelves which are seen as the safe bet vs. a 1980-early 2000's one which has seen some use. Easiest rule of thumb is pick a Stainless action with the 'S' prefix and pay £500-300 and you are quids in. Avoid the 'RR' prefix serials due to crappy trigger, bedding area ruined by a QR code and bolt handles lacking primary extraction. Biggest benefit is aftermarket parts (stock, trigger, scope bases and even prefit barrels) which make them the choice of the tinkerer or
Anything chambered in .243 is somehow seen to be 'too small' yet a 100 grain 6mm bullet will kill anything in the UK. Maybe it will have a comeback as the 'expert's choice' much like the smaller shotgun gauges.
Judgement should be made based on the bullets your rifle can fire, and the 243/6mm will do it all just fine and at reasonable cost. However, this seems to have been abandoned in favour of the 6.5 something for the time being when the competition shooters now favour either the 6mm or 7mm instead.
A badly kept secret is that Remington used 1:9 1/4 twist barrels on most of their .243's/6mm's which shoot heavier bullets a tad better than most other manufacturer's barrels which are 1:10".
A borescope can now be had for £50 and plugged into a mobile phone, so no longer a specialist tool. Headspace gauges can also be purchased (although at greater expense). If an inspection of the rifle was refused, I would not buy the rifle.
However, I have bought a few rifles 'sight unseen' and not been too badly burnt. Do some research and remember to choose wisely!
I've never done that once. It's easy to tell if a rifle is in good nick by the way it has been looked after, especially if it is an oldie. Barrel up to the light a peek down the muzzle and if the rifling is sharp enough and the brass gets nowhere near the barrel when sticking the projectile in the muzzle it's a thumbs up for me. The simple methods dont change. Scopes, now that's different story.A 2nd rifle is like a 2nd hand car.
1. I wouldn’t buy the car without a test drive.
2. I’d shoot the rifle before I bought it.
Simples
DG
Its interesting that a couple of us on here have had zero issues. You might just be dealing in some shithouse circles mate, or mayby not picking up the signs of the lemons. Ive never had a single issue with anything I've purchased that I've had a good look at beforehand. Have you considered having someone with you when you take a look?
On a number of occasions recently I’ve found asking lots of pertinent but relevant questions usually results in one of several outcomes:
1. Sorry shouldn’t be advertised/thought I’d withdrawn that one. Usually still being advertised days later.
2. Sold, sorry ad never updated. Still advertised though.
3. Or by far the most common, my questions/ e mails just don’t get answered.
My cynicism tells me that there are a lot if dodgy sellers out there and they know it. This related equally to the trade as much as private sellers.
1. Sorry shouldn’t be advertised/thought I’d withdrawn that one. Usually still being advertised days later.
2. Sold, sorry ad never updated. Still advertised though.
3. Or by far the most common, my questions/ e mails just don’t get answered.
My cynicism tells me that there are a lot if dodgy sellers out there and they know it. This related equally to the trade as much as private sellers.
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