Second Hand Rifles - some thoughts

[TringSaint]

All of my rifles bar one are new to me. The only SH one is my 243, a Winchester 70 coyote which is a rifle I knew nothing about.

I had gone to the gun shop to order a tikka T3 Varmint and just happened to ask what else he had in the calibre and voila!

I paid £550 for it which was probably a little over price, but I got a gem. I knew the chap who had sold it had originally bought it from the same shop a couple of years earlier and the ammo count was low as they had sold that too. What I didn’t know was that the original owner was a chap a short distance from me who is a well respected rfd and gunsmith and when he found out I had the rifle, he was so chuffed and was happy to tell me it’s history.

This rifle has a nickname - it’s called the scalpel as shooting with it is like performing surgery as it’s that accurate. One chap at my club was shooting a mcqueens moving target and he put 10 rounds into a 50p sized circle from 200m - on a moving target!

So not all used guns are lemons but buy from a gun shop or rfd you know and trust - they won’t want to shaft you.

 

[JH83]

To be

Never bore scoped a prospective purchase.
Never shot a rifle before buying it. ~Muir

To be honest as often as not you’d likely get away with this from a decent gun shop anyways. Clearly a well used 25-06 from a contractor should be sounding an alarm . Most rifles shoot acceptably even lightly pitted.

But……my brother bought a nice custom Mauser 6.5x55 a good while back. Walnut stock, classic lines. A gentleman’s roe stalker perhaps (you’d think). We couldn’t keep bullets inside a teacup at 100yds. Ronin had a look…barrel was toast. Firecracked almost full length. Since then I’ve been a barrel checker I am afraid, the rebarrel cost as much as the rifle did even though it was a very reasonable price, and made a lovely rifle.

 

[Zetter]

Had both ends to be honest

Bought a Sako 75 in .243 it was off our game keeper and it must have been 4th hand starting life as a FC rifle. I didnt expect much and to be honest for the money I paid was just buying the action really in my mind. It hadnt been cleaned for ages and the stock had a bit of paint on it when he had left it out decorating (it was that type of rifle). But it would hold a below MOA group all day long and would shoot everything from 55 grain to 90 grain.

On the flip side I bought a brand new savage .270 and it was a pain in the bum. Wouldnt shoot anything below 1.5" until I lucked out and got a box of 145 grain ELDX to try suddenly shoots them like a deamon but its the only round I have found that it likes. I did when I was having issues get it borescoped by Mike up at Carlton Moor the rifling was shall we say not the best real friday afternoon rifle for whoever was doing the barrels that day.

If I was going second hand again though after an recent Remington .223 experience I would go somewhere where I could actually shoot it first.

 

[alberta boy]

Considering I enjoy shooting old rifles , the majority of the rifles I own have been used by others , sometimes they've been owned by a number of generations . I don't buy anything unless I can get it in my hands first , and I can honestly say , I've never bought a dog . I've purposefully bought rifles with blown out bores to be used for a future project , but that's a different story . I do buy new rifles if it's something interesting or in a chambering I've never used before , but , again , I won't buy it unless I have a good look at it first . There are a lot of nice SH rifles out there , but if you don't know what to look for , educate yourself , or take someone who knows what to look for with you . That applies to pretty much any purchase , not just firearms . I have noticed a disturbing trend lately of new firearms with issues right out of the box , not a huge jump , but enough to notice . I buy or trade a few firearms monthly , I have got some incredible deals on new firearms because they had issues and the owner wanted to move it on with full disclosure ( The firearms community is fairly tight knit out here , selling junk to the innocent will get you blackballed very quickly ) . They're usually an easy fix , bedding and poor finishing on small parts ( burrs ) being the most common problems I've encountered . The main difference between the Canadian and UK market is that a good used firearm , from a reputable maker , like Sako , Husqvarna or pre 64 Winchesters , will sell for more than a new rifle will . I'm not saving money by buying used , it's actually the opposite .

AB

 

[Skinny78]

Considering I enjoy shooting old rifles , the majority of the rifles I own have been used by others , sometimes they've been owned by a number of generations . I don't buy anything unless I can get it in my hands first , and I can honestly say , I've never bought a dog . I've purposefully bought rifles with blown out bores to be used for a future project , but that's a different story . I do buy new rifles if it's something interesting or in a chambering I've never used before , but , again , I won't buy it unless I have a good look at it first . There are a lot of nice SH rifles out there , but if you don't know what to look for , educate yourself , or take someone who knows what to look for with you . That applies to pretty much any purchase , not just firearms . I have noticed a disturbing trend lately of new firearms with issues right out of the box , not a huge jump , but enough to notice . I buy or trade a few firearms monthly , I have got some incredible deals on new firearms because they had issues and the owner wanted to move it on with full disclosure ( The firearms community is fairly tight knit out here , selling junk to the innocent will get you blackballed very quickly ) . They're usually an easy fix , bedding and poor finishing on small parts ( burrs ) being the most common problems I've encountered . The main difference between the Canadian and UK market is that a good used firearm , from a reputable maker , like Sako , Husqvarna or pre 64 Winchesters , will sell for more than a new rifle will . I'm not saving money by buying used , it's actually the opposite .

AB

You're exactly right AB, if you have a look and know what you're doing you have very few to zero problems.

 

[Overlay]

Dare I say it, Sako is the same in my opinion

sako vixen, the 75 now the 85 all gone out of production to be honest they were the best CF rifles sako ever made, to be honest I don’t think I would buy one of the new sako rifles mow

 

[maxtheflyinghorse]

And I just sold a brand new Howa less than 70 shots from new to get a 1981 Winchester mod 70 that was a safe queen. Seen the gun and it’s in absolutely mint condition. Fingers crossed.I have another 1994 mod 70 in .223 which I bought for £235 and it shoots half Moa groups. Another mod 70 I have is a .375 H&H made in 2005 and it has 20 rounds from new. Only other second hand rifles I bought was a ruger 10/22 and a CZ 452 both shoots touching groups as well. Guess it’s all about getting lucky

 

[Skinny78]

sako vixen, the 75 now the 85 all gone out of production to be honest they were the best CF rifles sako ever made, to be honest I don’t think I would buy one of the new sako rifles mow

The new ones are still good. Alot of the full time cullers use them here in all the conditions. Still a few of them rebarreling thier vixens aswell!

 

[Overlay]

I did try I think the S20 - having used the 75/85 a fair bit wasn’t overly impressed to be honest

 

[Covert]

We seem to be getting endless threads on rifles being bought or sold 2nd hand and then lots of complaints about this or that.

Any gun is only ever new once. From factory they come with warranties and guarantees with a level of protection.

2nd hand guns are like 2nd hand cars. There is always a good reason why the first owner sold it. In the UK with rifles it is difficult just to keep a rifle if you fancy something new and I suspect there are lots of rifles trying to be sold just to make space.

Sellers always think rifles are far more valuable than they are.

Consider the cartridge carefully. Things like the 22-250 and 308 are widely used by professionals- gamekeepers, deer managers, forestry rangers. They are bought, used hard and every five to ten years or so are traded in. They then end up in the 2nd had market.

A 7x57 will not have gone through the above.

Most gun dealers these days take in a 2nd hand rifle and strip off the scope and mounts. They make more money that way. Ideally you want to shoot a rifle in its original set up. Chances all bugs were ironed out and it’s probably zeroed pretty well.

The ideal and bargain second hand rifles are the gentlemen and lady type quality rifles. I know of one Mannlicher Schoeneur with one lady owner from new. It was a wedding present. For the last 60 years it’s been used a couple of times a year to take a couple of stags. It is in good condition. The caps on the scope are gummed in position. I doubt it has had more than 100 rounds through it - still has some original ammo - and its been zeroed once in its life.

Most other 2nd rifles may or may not shoot well. Factor in cost of a rebarrel at some point - especially in a fast overbore calibre.

And 20 to 30 years ago a rifle that shot a 2” group was considered more than good enough. And frankly it is. The Internet and marketing has led us all to believe that all rifles shoot 1/2” groups and that any rifleman can take any rifle and shoot 1/2” groups. Most cannot.

If you want certainty in a 2nd hand rifle, either buy new, or buy it from somebody, somewhere that will allow you to test shoot it before buying.

A lot of people like the latest offerings in the box with all the packaging, paperwork and some form guarantee.
Others are looking for used for many different reasons budget, nostalgia or personal preference etc.
Each have there merits and pitfalls.
Personally I have gone down both routes and learnt a lot over the years.
My preference is that I know what I like so be it new ( rarely) or secondhand I tend to deal with people I know/trust. Also I would rather pay a little more for something with a known province than take too much of a chance.

 

[Bowland blades]

Dare I say it, Sako is the same in my opinion

New ones like that S20 - Definitely 100% ! Still think the Sako 75 was the best and Original design deer rifle made in practically every respect . Hence its now basically been copied .
But hey , its the same with cars , trucks and vans . Fierce firearms picked up that ball and ran with it though eh? didn't they just!
All Berretta did for Sako was increase the margins , even down to removing the palm swell FFS
Best thing they could do while they have the 85 suspended is turn it back into a 75 maybe add a proper composite stock

 

[harrygrey382]

the only rifle i bought new was the only one I’ve had dramas with, the only one I regret buying and the only one I don’t regret selling. I’ve bought 10s of rifles since then, all for bargain prices, most over 40 years old, never shot one or had it bore scoped before I bought it and most were sight unseen. All have functioned perfectly and shot at least as good as I was hoping. Maybe I’m just lucky though

 

[Bowland blades]

All valid points.

In reality you need to get any S/H rifle bore scoped by someone you trust and knows what they are looking at. I have bought several second hand rifles over the years that have given excellent service, in fact all of my current 3 rifles were second hand but checked meticulously by a friend who is a gunsmith/rifle builder. I always stipulate that the rifle is to be RFD’d to my mate for inspection. Anyone not prepared to do that is selling a lemon.

My last purchase was a sako 591 in .308. Bought from Ivythorne for less than £500, not a mark on it, chequering fresh, blueing deep. Shoots sub inch with everything I have put through it. They are out there!

View attachment 304882

I had the 595 from brand new in 7-08 - it was hard to feed at the time as it was 7-08 and there where practically no 7-08 in the country as factory and the only brass with the head stamp was remmington that had to be ordered in . Stainless laminate , shot really well but shooting 140 grain seirra pro hunters and 130? Nosler BT didnt really get the best out of the calibre. The Noslers i struggled to get shooting but the guy i sold the gun to managed it using a different powder but it took him a while !

 

[njc110381]

New ones like that S20 - Definitely 100% ! Still think the Sako 75 was the best and Original design deer rifle made in practically every respect . Hence its now basically been copied .
But hey , its the same with cars , trucks and vans . Fierce firearms picked up that ball and ran with it though eh? didn't they just!
All Berretta did for Sako was increase the margins , even down to removing the palm swell FFS
Best thing they could do while they have the 85 suspended is turn it back into a 75 maybe add a proper composite stock

You mean make less money? Good luck with that plan, nothing else matters these days.

I'm just happy that the current trend is to buy new. I wanted a .17 Fireball recently so it was straight to the Holt's list, old Sako small action in .222 (there was one estimated at £60 in the last lot), chuck a barrel on it, smarten it up a bit and done.

There were several old Sako models in the last auction for under £200. Utter madness, folk would rather buy a Browning XBolt...

 

[Bowland blades]

You mean make less money? Good luck with that plan, nothing else matters these days.

I'm just happy that the current trend is to buy new. I wanted a .17 Fireball recently so it was straight to the Holt's list, old Sako small action in .222 (there was one estimated at £60 in the last lot), chuck a barrel on it, smarten it up a bit and done.

There were several old Sako models in the last auction for under £200. Utter madness, folk would rather buy a Browning XBolt...

Well " make less money" can be achieved by charging too much as well as too little ! My point was and remains if you look at what sako saved making the 85 over the better 75 it was peanuts per unit but then i feel looking at market share they have lost
the 75 would still sell better than the 85 against the stiffer competition today. The 85 suffered a stack of problems and devalued to brand. Remember hoe BMW took the wrong turn with its little car and the family breeze block ? It took a while to recover from that

 

[Skinny78]

the only rifle i bought new was the only one I’ve had dramas with, the only one I regret buying and the only one I don’t regret selling. I’ve bought 10s of rifles since then, all for bargain prices, most over 40 years old, never shot one or had it bore scoped before I bought it and most were sight unseen. All have functioned perfectly and shot at least as good as I was hoping. Maybe I’m just lucky though

It's only luck if you didn't look at it beforehand. You make your judgement on a brand/models reputation and thennif it looks well looked after. It's a simple thing, one that you must be doing. Some just don't seem to be able to do it. You don't need to be a gunsmith with a borescope to pick a good secondhand rifle.

 

[Bowland blades]

It's only luck if you didn't look at it beforehand. You make your judgement on a brand/models reputation and thennif it looks well looked after. It's a simple thing, one that you must be doing. Some just don't seem to be able to do it. You don't need to be a gunsmith with a borescope to pick a good secondhand rifle.

your statement seems to contradict itself a fair bit here, could you elaborate ? A range rifle will show a very clean exteriour if its done 500 or 5000 rounds and a hunting rifle might show a bigger amount of use externally but may have a very low round count. I know one keeper with a 222 who only uses a box of 20 a year at the most but the rifle looks like its done a massive amount of work . Purely been bumped around in trucks and on ATVs and carried a lot .
Always kind of nervous about sporting rifles that look mint , it can imply they never shot too good as well as " safe queen"
Not everyone has the equipment to look and check even in the trade , though bore scopes at the basic level are certainly a lot cheaper today

 

[User00040]

It's a simple thing, one that you must be doing. Some just don't seem to be able to do it. You don't need to be a gunsmith with a borescope to pick a good secondhand rifle.

Please enlighten us as to what this is, or do you just 'feel energy' / 'see colour auras'...?

Brand name means nothing if the design of the rifle is crap.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Scopes, now that's different story.

Tell me about it!

K

 

[Mungo]

Please enlighten us as to what this is, or do you just 'feel energy' / 'see colour auras'...?

Brand name means nothing if the design of the rifle is crap.

Though to be fair there is some disagreement over what constitutes a crap design!