Second Hand Rifles - some thoughts

[Heym SR20]

Brand name is important, and brands that are still in existence will add further value.

A good second hand rifle is £500 to £600.

Add £200 to £500 if it is a modern / desirable brand.

Knock £200 or £300 off if its old and tatty.

If it was a high end rifle call it £1,000.

If it is a rifle you can still buy brand new, pristine 2nd hand is retail price less VAT less another 10 to 20%.

Calibre makes a difference. Odd calibres reduce the price. Popular calibres make rifle easier to sell.

Now to brands. Lets take a decent 7x57, 270 etc built on a good Mauser 98 action or Mannlicher type action

Midland/PH/BSA - £250 etc
Built by a good regional gunmaker £500 to £800.

Trevor Procter, Ronald Wharton etc £1500 to £2000.

Rigby, Westley Richards etc £2000 to £4000.

Big game calibre - double the above.

Condition also makes a big difference, so too does overall quality, engraving, pretty wood etc.

Provenance can also add immense value, especially if several are looking at trying to purchase it.

There is a lot of demand for the precision/ sniper type rifles so their prices remain strong.

 

[Dunwaters]

I buy a second a hand gun the same way I buy a secondhand 4x4.
Pick a top marque, whoever bought it first was proud of it, likely didn’t work it hard and looked after it, so I’d be happy to pay a bit more for a blued steel and wood model showing very little wear over the synthetic version.
I’d also pick a RR over a Defender any day, I have delusions of grandeur.

 

[Skinny78]

Please enlighten us as to what this is, or do you just 'feel energy' / 'see colour auras'...?

Brand name means nothing if the design of the rifle is crap.

For 2nd hand buying if brand and a model has a good historical reputation and it has been well looked after has a nice shiny bright barrel with sharp enough rifling it is more than generally going to be a good buy. Been doing it that simple way my entire life. I don't know what else to say to you, other than a question you probably won't be able to answer. How have myself and several others on this thread that have purchased dozens of times without issue manage to have no issues? Luck, magic, or "auras" and "energy" as you say, oooor........mayby common sense and a reasonable eye.

 

[Skinny78]

Tell me about it!

K

Well you can look a rifle or shot gun over have a play around with it point the barrel at the sky look inside see and feel wear and tear but a scope can look brand new and how do you have any idea until you zero it. Have had a couple of faulty scopes with rifle purchases over the years. If it's a Burris or Leupold theres no risk with the lifetime warranty.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Well you can look a rifle or shot gun over have a play around with it point the barrel at the sky look inside see and feel wear and tear but a scope can look brand new and how do you have any idea until you zero it. Have had a couple of faulty scopes with rifle purchases over the years. If it's a Burris or Leupold theres no risk with the lifetime warranty.

I fear you missed the irony in my post that sort to provide further humour (at my expense) as I’ve had an as new in-the-box scope advertised in the Classifieds for only some 6-years.

Or put another way, just ignore me as most clearly have!

Best

K

 

[Skinny78]

your statement seems to contradict itself a fair bit here, could you elaborate ? A range rifle will show a very clean exteriour if its done 500 or 5000 rounds and a hunting rifle might show a bigger amount of use externally but may have a very low round count. I know one keeper with a 222 who only uses a box of 20 a year at the most but the rifle looks like its done a massive amount of work . Purely been bumped around in trucks and on ATVs and carried a lot .
Always kind of nervous about sporting rifles that look mint , it can imply they never shot too good as well as " safe queen"
Not everyone has the equipment to look and check even in the trade , though bore scopes at the basic level are certainly a lot cheaper today

No problem, to clarify, I don't shoot range, never have, paper doesnt interest me. I'm a hunter, that's how I prefer to spend my time. I would have zeroed a rifle on a range less than 5 times in my life, always have a farm to do so, so as far as shiny rifles that only go from box to bench that are set up for range shooting specifically don't suit me. I buy privately off people who generally have similar interests as myself, guys who hunt and rifles that do get knocked around in the conditions we put them in. There's no contradictions, a rifle that has been knocked around can still be well looked after, wear and tear and bruising is part of the way we hunt in this part if the world, can't be avoided, there's hardly any driving around in vehicles or walking stick free tracks and fields to keep a rifle pristine. My point is in complete agreement with you, an unused looking rifle has much more suspicion as for me than an obvious used one. If one is bruised up a bit and still has a reasonably shiny sharp rifle down the barrel it's going to be ok. Guys don't generally cart a rifle around to a point of obvious external wear and tear if it hasn't served them well. It looks like we agree.

 

[Skinny78]

Please enlighten us as to what this is, or do you just 'feel energy' / 'see colour auras'...?

Brand name means nothing if the design of the rifle is crap.

PS: Im sure I said brand/model. Not just brand. I will agree with you on brand alone meaning nothing but who buys on brand alone? Not me. You might have to start directing your loopy emoji at yourself chap if you're struggling to read or understand simple posts.

 

[John Gryphon]

Now to brands. Lets take a decent 7x57, 270 etc built on a good Mauser 98 action or Mannlicher type action

Yes yes yes to a M98,I have had a few built on PH`s,last was a 9.3 x 64 and it cost me circa 2g`s AUD. Top barrel/stock/bedding and
I only added to the pile of brass with another empty, bottom line is that this rifle does what a 10G rifle does.
Second hand is ok in my book.
I`m a little late today but its leaving with me in 2 minutes!

 

[Heym SR20]

No problem, to clarify, I don't shoot range, never have, paper doesnt interest me. I'm a hunter, that's how I prefer to spend my time. I would have zeroed a rifle on a range less than 5 times in my life, always have a farm to do so, so as far as shiny rifles that only go from box to bench that are set up for range shooting specifically don't suit me. I buy privately off people who generally have similar interests as myself, guys who hunt and rifles that do get knocked around in the conditions we put them in. There's no contradictions, a rifle that has been knocked around can still be well looked after, wear and tear and bruising is part of the way we hunt in this part if the world, can't be avoided, there's hardly any driving around in vehicles or walking stick free tracks and fields to keep a rifle pristine. My point is in complete agreement with you, an unused looking rifle has much more suspicion as for me than an obvious used one. If one is bruised up a bit and still has a reasonably shiny sharp rifle down the barrel it's going to be ok. Guys don't generally cart a rifle around to a point of obvious external wear and tear if it hasn't served them well. It looks like we agree.

I too am principally a hunter. I do look after my rifles, and do often carry them covered as it just keeps the rain and other muck off them. Often there is more than enough time to take rifle out of the slip before the shot. But there are times when you carry the rifle in hand as a deer may pop out, or jump and you want a quick shot. I don’t mind wear and tear on a gun. I do object though to just abuse and have seen people use a gun as a walking stick or to bash a phaesant over the head with. Guns, like other tools are usually reasonably expensive and besides whilst the might be tough, abuse knocks sights off etc. hence I like to protect and look after them.

 

[HonestJohn]

sako vixen, the 75 now the 85 all gone out of production to be honest they were the best CF rifles sako ever made, to be honest I don’t think I would buy one of the new sako rifles mow

Good, but not as good as the L46 and the L61R

 

[enfieldspares]

We seem to be getting endless threads on rifles being bought or sold 2nd hand and then lots of complaints about this or that.

Caveat emptor always applies UNLESS you are buying from an established vendor who values his reputation. And buying at auction? Sold as seen!

Any gun is only ever new once. From factory they come with warranties and guarantees with a level of protection.

Yes but the other side of the coin is that it takes the biggest "hit" in value when sold on the first time. So buying then is always usually the best value.

2nd hand guns are like 2nd hand cars. There is always a good reason why the first owner sold it. In the UK with rifles it is difficult just to keep a rifle if you fancy something new and I suspect there are lots of rifles trying to be sold just to make space.

Absolutely in the US. And correct in what's said re the UK where there's pressure to keep the total number of gun in your cabinet at a lesser number.

Sellers always think rifles are far more valuable than they are.

+1 to that. You see it even more so with secondhand AYA XXV and No2 guns.

Consider the cartridge carefully. Things like the 22-250 and 308 are widely used by professionals- gamekeepers, deer managers, forestry rangers. They are bought, used hard and every five to ten years or so are traded in. They then end up in the 2nd had market.

Sooner that than one used by a "plinker" who fires a string of rounds at one session unlike a stalker who may fire one one a day or one every two minutes.

A 7x57 will not have gone through the above.

Ah, yes. But some venerable 7x57 may be from the days of corrosive primers and/or cordite. And cheaper steel. Older is not always better.

Most gun dealers these days take in a 2nd hand rifle and strip off the scope and mounts. They make more money that way. Ideally you want to shoot a rifle in its original set up. Chances all bugs were ironed out and it’s probably zeroed pretty well.

Yes. True is that. Or they stock a cheap near worn out internally 'scope on it!

The ideal and bargain second hand rifles are the gentlemen and lady type quality rifles. I know of one Mannlicher Schoeneur with one lady owner from new. It was a wedding present. For the last 60 years it’s been used a couple of times a year to take a couple of stags. It is in good condition. The caps on the scope are gummed in position. I doubt it has had more than 100 rounds through it - still has some original ammo - and its been zeroed once in its life.

What the Americans call "safe Queens", But beware the gun immaculate on the outside but never was cleaned after last firing, the bore now red rust

Most other 2nd rifles may or may not shoot well. Factor in cost of a rebarrel at some point - especially in a fast overbore calibre.

I've never done that. It shoots or it gets sold.

And 20 to 30 years ago a rifle that shot a 2” group was considered more than good enough. And frankly it is. The Internet and marketing has led us all to believe that all rifles shoot 1/2” groups and that any rifleman can take any rifle and shoot 1/2” groups. Most cannot.

Exactly this. Heck Parker Hale used to warrant "under three inches at one hundred yards with Norma ammunition". Good enough then. Good enough now.

If you want certainty in a 2nd hand rifle, either buy new, or buy it from somebody, somewhere that will allow you to test shoot it before buying.

Where I came in with my first reply. Caveat emptor always applies UNLESS you are buying from an established vendor who values his reputation

All good comments from HEYM SR20 on the whole. But like old classic lathes they also made "dogs" back in the days of the now "classic" stuff.

 

[25 Sharps]

We seem to be getting endless threads on rifles being bought or sold 2nd hand and then lots of complaints about this or that.

Any gun is only ever new once. From factory they come with warranties and guarantees with a level of protection.

2nd hand guns are like 2nd hand cars. There is always a good reason why the first owner sold it. In the UK with rifles it is difficult just to keep a rifle if you fancy something new and I suspect there are lots of rifles trying to be sold just to make space.

Sellers always think rifles are far more valuable than they are.

Consider the cartridge carefully. Things like the 22-250 and 308 are widely used by professionals- gamekeepers, deer managers, forestry rangers. They are bought, used hard and every five to ten years or so are traded in. They then end up in the 2nd had market.

A 7x57 will not have gone through the above.

Most gun dealers these days take in a 2nd hand rifle and strip off the scope and mounts. They make more money that way. Ideally you want to shoot a rifle in its original set up. Chances all bugs were ironed out and it’s probably zeroed pretty well.

The ideal and bargain second hand rifles are the gentlemen and lady type quality rifles. I know of one Mannlicher Schoeneur with one lady owner from new. It was a wedding present. For the last 60 years it’s been used a couple of times a year to take a couple of stags. It is in good condition. The caps on the scope are gummed in position. I doubt it has had more than 100 rounds through it - still has some original ammo - and its been zeroed once in its life.

Most other 2nd rifles may or may not shoot well. Factor in cost of a rebarrel at some point - especially in a fast overbore calibre.

And 20 to 30 years ago a rifle that shot a 2” group was considered more than good enough. And frankly it is. The Internet and marketing has led us all to believe that all rifles shoot 1/2” groups and that any rifleman can take any rifle and shoot 1/2” groups. Most cannot.

If you want certainty in a 2nd hand rifle, either buy new, or buy it from somebody, somewhere that will allow you to test shoot it before buying.

2” may be good enough for you, for a lot of us it is not!

I have yet to buy a secondhand centre fire, bar one bad .223 on here, that did not shoot reliably inside an inch and most of the files I’ve owned have been secondhand, third hand or fourth hand. That’s even with some pitting in some bores.

That’s also all in many mainstream calibres, .223 and .308 should last thousands of rounds particularly if not used as target rifles. You don’t need to buy an obscure calibre or an ancient wedding present, that probably has a rusty bore from lack of use and cleaning, to get a decent, accurate second hand rifle.

You don’t need the original scope on a rifle to check it shoots either.

People should be honest about what they sell and if they are not, that’s not the rifle’s fault or the buyer’s.

Though I agree with the main point of your post, i.e. buyer beware, you don’t half talk some poppy cock.

 

[Heym SR20]

2” may be good enough for you, for a lot of us it is not!
Though I agree with the main point of your post, i.e. buyer beware, you don’t half talk some poppy cock.

Well why bother reading my posts then? More to the point why keep making stupid, rude remarks about my posts and pretty much everyone else’s. You don’t do yourself any service by making them.

 

[Bowland blades]

I too am principally a hunter. I do look after my rifles, and do often carry them covered as it just keeps the rain and other muck off them. Often there is more than enough time to take rifle out of the slip before the shot. But there are times when you carry the rifle in hand as a deer may pop out, or jump and you want a quick shot. I don’t mind wear and tear on a gun. I do object though to just abuse and have seen people use a gun as a walking stick or to bash a phaesant over the head with. Guns, like other tools are usually reasonably expensive and besides whilst the might be tough, abuse knocks sights off etc. hence I like to protect and look after them.

TBF , the only time i take my rifle from a case or slip to take a shot is when i have been caught unaware traveling in an ATV of some description , its a toss up if i get to take it and its what we term " a fire drill " moving fast in a panic and hoping for the best outcome .

 

[Heym SR20]

Caveat emptor always applies UNLESS you are buying from an established vendor who values his reputation. And buying at auction? Sold as seen!

Yes but the other side of the coin is that it takes the biggest "hit" in value when sold on the first time. So buying then is always usually the best value.

Absolutely in the US. And correct in what's said re the UK where there's pressure to keep the total number of gun in your cabinet at a lesser number.

+1 to that. You see it even more so with secondhand AYA XXV and No2 guns.

Sooner that than one used by a "plinker" who fires a string of rounds at one session unlike a stalker who may fire one one a day or one every two minutes.

Ah, yes. But some venerable 7x57 may be from the days of corrosive primers and/or cordite. And cheaper steel. Older is not always better.

Yes. True is that. Or they stock a cheap near worn out internally 'scope on it!

What the Americans call "safe Queens", But beware the gun immaculate on the outside but never was cleaned after last firing, the bore now red rust

I've never done that. It shoots or it gets sold.

Exactly this. Heck Parker Hale used to warrant "under three inches at one hundred yards with Norma ammunition". Good enough then. Good enough now.

Where I came in with my first reply. Caveat emptor always applies UNLESS you are buying from an established vendor who values his reputation

All good comments from HEYM SR20 on the whole. But like old classic lathes they also made "dogs" back in the days of the now "classic" stuff.

Quite. Plenty of rubbish guns made in the past. Just like cars and music. Fortunately the filter of time really does weed out the crap.

 

[Skinny78]

Brand name is important, and brands that are still in existence will add further value.

A good second hand rifle is £500 to £600.

Add £200 to £500 if it is a modern / desirable brand.

Knock £200 or £300 off if its old and tatty.

If it was a high end rifle call it £1,000.

If it is a rifle you can still buy brand new, pristine 2nd hand is retail price less VAT less another 10 to 20%.

Calibre makes a difference. Odd calibres reduce the price. Popular calibres make rifle easier to sell.

Now to brands. Lets take a decent 7x57, 270 etc built on a good Mauser 98 action or Mannlicher type action

Midland/PH/BSA - £250 etc
Built by a good regional gunmaker £500 to £800.

Trevor Procter, Ronald Wharton etc £1500 to £2000.

Rigby, Westley Richards etc £2000 to £4000.

Big game calibre - double the above.

Condition also makes a big difference, so too does overall quality, engraving, pretty wood etc.

Provenance can also add immense value, especially if several are looking at trying to purchase it.

There is a lot of demand for the precision/ sniper type rifles so their prices remain strong.

I can onlyrand alone is a start but by itself can let people down as some have flip flopped in quality over the decades but a model with a good reputation combined with a brand

I too am principally a hunter. I do look after my rifles, and do often carry them covered as it just keeps the rain and other muck off them. Often there is more than enough time to take rifle out of the slip before the shot. But there are times when you carry the rifle in hand as a deer may pop out, or jump and you want a quick shot. I don’t mind wear and tear on a gun. I do object though to just abuse and have seen people use a gun as a walking stick or to bash a phaesant over the head with. Guns, like other tools are usually reasonably expensive and besides whilst the might be tough, abuse knocks sights off etc. hence I like to protect and look after them.

That would be good but theres no chance of that bush hunting in NZ, it's in hand most of the day. Doesn't stop it getting a proper clean at the end of the day, even when away in the scrub for a week or ten days i have a little pouch in the pack with atleast a pull through and a wee bottle if oil.

 

[Bowland blades]

Quite. Plenty of rubbish guns made in the past. Just like cars and music. Fortunately the filter of time really does weed out the crap.

Some of the worst guns i have bought , appeared hardly shot and pretty much mint after many years ( reason being they simply didn't shoot well)

 

[Heym SR20]

I can onlyrand alone is a start but by itself can let people down as some have flip flopped in quality over the decades but a model with a good reputation combined with a brand

That would be good but theres no chance of that bush hunting in NZ, it's in hand most of the day.

No difference hunting in woodland in UK - rifle in hand. I tend to use a slip or pack to carry a rifle when you have a good walk in as its just easier to carry, as often the case in Scottish mountains. Rifle comes put of slip for final stalk into a target animal.

 

[Skinny78]

No difference hunting in woodland in UK - rifle in hand. I tend to use a slip or pack to carry a rifle when you have a good walk in as its just easier to carry, as often the case in Scottish mountains. Rifle comes put of slip for final stalk into a target animal.

Unfortunately I cant speak to the UK conditions, only to mine. Bush hunting here is alert all the time surprising upon animals, no stalk to plan just reaction. Shots generally 50y max, only when breaking out onto tops or open valleys will the sling go over the shoulder.

 

[Skinny78]

Some of the worst guns i have bought , appeared hardly shot and pretty much mint after many years ( reason being they simply didn't shoot well)

I agree with you there. Unused is unproven.