Soft point expansion

[RCS Deer Management]

Usually more velocity means more expansion, however! There is a point where a bullet can travel so fast, OR slow, that if hitting soft tissue, it WILL fail to expand. That is pretty common knowledge and why you don’t shoot intonsoft tissue/rear lung under 50yds and over 250yds give it take

I’m not sure it’s common knowledge, maybe a common old wives tale. Honestly, if you can prove that scientifically I would love to see it, although I know that you wouldn’t be able to. The faster you push any expanding bullet the more rapid and extreme the expansion. Iv seen foxes hit with soft points at 4100fps and they definitely didn’t pencil through. For anyone who is interested Nathan foster has done a lot of research on terminal ballistics. You can find his website on google.

 

[Tulloch]

I fully agree that bullets can do weird and funny things but just can’t agree that non expansion can be down to pushing soft points too fast although fully accept that opinions can vary. I too have worked extensively around professionals, non of whome have ever believed your theory. As a side note what do you think of Nathan fosters work?

you only get expansion if it hits something that makes it expand , softpoints do not expand on soft tissue very quickly , if you dont hit a fox on something hard it will go through , yes if your hitting a steel plate the faster a bullet is going it will expand more but not if your hitting something soft ,

If you shoot a fox behind the shoulder and it misses ribs and bone the bullet just will not expand it is like going through two pieces of thin material . I do watch Nathan fosters stuff on Youtube and he knows what he is stalking about ,

think of this , you shoot through two blankets that bullet ballistic or otherwise is not going to expand, thats the same with fox , in that soft part behind the shoulder you literally only have 2 thin layers of skin for a bullet to go through and less than a inch for it all to happen. Softpoint dont expand immediately thats all I am saying.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

you only get expansion if it hits something that makes it expand , softpoints do not expand on soft tissue very quickly , if you dont hit a fox on something hard it will go through , yes if your hitting a steel plate the faster a bullet is going it will expand more but not if your hitting something soft ,

If you shoot a fox behind the shoulder and it misses ribs and bone the bullet just will not expand it is like going through two pieces of thin material . I do watch Nathan fosters stuff on Youtube and he knows what he is stalking about ,

think of this , you shoot through two blankets that bullet ballistic or otherwise is not going to expand, thats the same with fox , in that soft part behind the shoulder you literally only have 2 thin layers of skin for a bullet to go through and less than a inch for it all to happen. Softpoint dont expand immediately thats all I am saying.

I completely agree with everything you have just said. The point that I disagreed with was that a bullet can travel fast enough that it will not expand, I completely agree that a bullet that meets insufficient resistance can fail to expand. I also raised the point that not all soft points act the same, some fully fragment like a v-max does and others expand slower depending on make and model. A bullets performance depends more on its internal construction rather than the material that the tip is made out of.

 

[Tulloch]

I completely agree with everything you have just said. The point that I disagreed with was that a bullet can travel fast enough that it will not expand, I completely agree that a bullet that meets insufficient resistance can fail to expand. I also raised the point that not all soft points act the same, some fully fragment like a v-max does and others expand slower depending on make and model. A bullets performance depends more on its internal construction rather than the material that the tip is made out of.

Exactly and exactly what I was saying in the first place and the faster a tougher bullet is, like say federal powershock , the less likely it is going to expand quickenough inside a fox.

I use Prohunters and they expand just right on deer but not on foxes unless I hit bone and then by god it leaves a huge hole. If you slow the bullet down the bullet has more time to expand inside the fox.

There is an easy experiment to prove this theory get two fruit boxes, stand them less than 1inch a part then take a shot at 100m then measure the entrance and the exit hole,

repeat the experiment by putting soft foam between them and do the same measuring and see if there is any difference ,

I have done this with both soft points and ballistic tips and on the BT's you get splinter holes on the softpoint there is little or no difference

 

[hendrix's rifle]

I shot a fox at around 300 yards a shirt while ago, blew a big hole in it yet it still ran, its leg was literally hanging in by a thread and lost a lot if blood. Some fox's are clearly just hard as nails

 

[User00033]

The debate is missing one vital ingredient.

Soft point vs plastic tip vs hollow point, you can go round in circles all day arguing the toss. But I think that it should be broadly accepted that the plastic tip / void behind / thin jacket design of varmint bullets makes them most suitable for small, soft targets for a reason.

The missing ingredient is CNS. If an animal runs, you didn't get the CNS, and it must die of blood loss. If it "dances", you got the CNS but only a glancing blow so to speak, the CNS is disturbed and sending signals hither and thither and will likely switch off shortly, combined with blood loss. This is the 7-8-10 sec delay (with gymnastics). If the animal goes down hard and doesn't move at all, maybe the odd twitch, you destroyed the CNS instantly.

A front of chest shot that involves the shoulder, underside if spine and/or aorta ( and associated CNS pathways) will - on pretty much any mammal - wreck locomotion control. Bang. Flop. You don't have to involve the spine directly to achieve this. An explosive varmint hitting the right spot will shock the spine and the fragmentation will destroy the nerves and aorta.

Choose any of the bullet options and hit them in the ribs behind the shoulder amidships, and you'll get a runner. You've missed the nerve pathways, the aorta and the spine, locomotion is intact and you must rely on blood loss for death.

FWIW having grown up with the advent of plastic tipped varmint bullets, and been through the whole argument about their effectiveness (and additional cost) back then, their performance speaks for itself. I love 'em. But the truth is for a given weight, I'll not know the difference between a V-Max, a Varmageddon, a Blitzking or any of the traditional hollow points. The little Berger Varmints are mind bendingly destructive, ditto the Sierra Gameking HP, I'm talking 55gr .224s. The HPs are just out of fashion I suppose.

 

[243 fallow]

I completely agree with everything you have just said. The point that I disagreed with was that a bullet can travel fast enough that it will not expand, I completely agree that a bullet that meets insufficient resistance can fail to expand. I also raised the point that not all soft points act the same, some fully fragment like a v-max does and others expand slower depending on make and model. A bullets performance depends more on its internal construction rather than the material that the tip is made out of.

Maybe use bullets that are designed for the job in hand, every manufacturer clearly designs them for the intended purpose,I use 50grn powershok in 222 and have had a few runners when I’ve chest shot them as the bullets have pencilled straight through with little or no expansion at ranges from 50 to 300yds, shots that have been a bit more forward on the animal and hit a bit of bone have devastating effects and a hell of an exit hole. For a bullet to expand it needs a bit of resistance even at high velocity, so a high velocity bullet striking something soft may not always expand as you might think, I like to consider myself a pro shot so I naturally know I’m correct

 

[25 Sharps]

Personally I always use ballistic tips to shoot foxes,as they are designed for rapid expansion on varmints/small game

As at badminton soft point or hollow points

 

[25 Sharps]

Maybe use bullets that are designed for the job in hand, every manufacturer clearly designs them for the intended purpose,I use 50grn powershok in 222 and have had a few runners when I’ve chest shot them as the bullets have pencilled straight through with little or no expansion at ranges from 50 to 300yds, shots that have been a bit more forward on the animal and hit a bit of bone have devastating effects and a hell of an exit hole. For a bullet to expand it needs a bit of resistance even at high velocity, so a high velocity bullet striking something soft may not always expand as you might think, I like to consider myself a pro shot so I naturally know I’m correct

It’s down to bullet construction and velocity. The powershock is a hunting bullet, not a varmint bullet, so not the right bullet for the job hence your runners.

I use 50 gr v-max /z-max at 3400 FPS ish, 35 gr V-max at 3050 FPS and 35 gr varmageddon at around 3250 FPS. They all expand whether they are on a soft fox or a softer rabbit, because they are varmint bullets designed to expand explosively unlike hunting bullets which are designed to expand controllably and to some extent hold together.

 

[Orion]

It’s down to bullet construction and velocity. The powershock is a hunting bullet, not a varmint bullet, so not the right bullet for the job hence your runners.

I use 50 gr v-max /z-max at 3400 FPS ish, 35 gr V-max at 3050 FPS and 35 gr varmageddon at around 3250 FPS. They all expand whether they are on a soft fox or a softer rabbit, because they are varmint bullets designed to expand explosively unlike hunting bullets which are designed to expand controllably and to some extent hold together.

Agree with that.

Even at lower velocities a purpose designed varmint bullet can do a devastating job. Case in point is the .30 calibre 110gr V-Max from my 300BLK, which at a modest 2,400 FPS will leave a fist sized exit on a chest shot fox or similar, and massive internal damage.

 

[plonker]

Never had a problem with any varmint bullet on a fox!
Shot them with tougher deer bullets and had plenty pencil through.
40gr zmax through my 233 ai at 3600 FPS turns the insides to soup.
17 rem with 25gr vmax and very rarely exit.
243 with 58 gr vmax devastating.
6.5 with 120gr have penciled.

 

[25 Sharps]

Exactly and exactly what I was saying in the first place and the faster a tougher bullet is, like say federal powershock , the less likely it is going to expand quickenough inside a fox.

I use Prohunters and they expand just right on deer but not on foxes unless I hit bone and then by god it leaves a huge hole. If you slow the bullet down the bullet has more time to expand inside the fox.

There is an easy experiment to prove this theory get two fruit boxes, stand them less than 1inch a part then take a shot at 100m then measure the entrance and the exit hole,

repeat the experiment by putting soft foam between them and do the same measuring and see if there is any difference ,

I have done this with both soft points and ballistic tips and on the BT's you get splinter holes on the softpoint there is little or no difference

Most

As at badminton soft point or hollow points

as are varmint soft point or hollow points!

I shoot 85 gr Sierra varmint hollow points out of the creedmoor at around 3400 fps. They expand very, very well to the extent sometimes they don’t exit the.

I’ve just sorted a load for the same bullet in the 25-45 using the 75 gr version at 3250, haven’t tried them yet but they will expand because like all varmint bullets they have a thin jacket

 

[levigsp]

Usually more velocity means more expansion, however! There is a point where a bullet can travel so fast, OR slow, that if hitting soft tissue, it WILL fail to expand. That is pretty common knowledge and why you don’t shoot intonsoft tissue/rear lung under 50yds and over 250yds give it take

Usually more velocity means more expansion, however! There is a point where a bullet can travel so fast, OR slow, that if hitting soft tissue, it WILL fail to expand. That is pretty common knowledge and why you don’t shoot intonsoft tissue/rear lung under 50yds and over 250yds give it take

Yes definitely, softpoints if designed for hunting not varmits, will not expand on foxes or roe if going to fast. Ive seen it many times.

 

[levigsp]

I’m not sure it’s common knowledge, maybe a common old wives tale. Honestly, if you can prove that scientifically I would love to see it, although I know that you wouldn’t be able to. The faster you push any expanding bullet the more rapid and extreme the expansion. Iv seen foxes hit with soft points at 4100fps and they definitely didn’t pencil through. For anyone who is interested Nathan foster has done a lot of research on terminal ballistics. You can find his website on google.

I don't care what you or anyone else trys to say, the PEOPLE MAKING BULLETS know better and they say that they will not expand if going too fast if designed for game animals. I have seen a lot of roe hit with 222, 22-250 243 e3ct and soft point bullets that have run sometimes many hundreds of yards. On finding them the bullets have drilled straight through without expanding, exit like a pencil.

 

[cjs66]

I like the sound of the badminton soft points, are they shuttlecocks ?

Where can I get some to try.

 

[Tulloch]

I would disagree with anyone that says that the bullet makers know better though .

Take the new Sierra Gamechangers, sierra make them for .243 but they will only work in a .243 if the barrel has a 1/9 twist or faster, you cannot get a factory .243 that is faster than 1/10 twist rate a FUBAR that Sierra have just started to admit too as they done their .243 testing with a custom rifle with 1/8 twist rate. Crazy

 

[User00033]

Er @Tulloch... the .243 Remington is 1:9.125" and the .243 Savage is a 1:9.250". Big chunk of the American market right there. But that's off topic. But,,, seeing as how we're there already. I annoyed my friendly Sierra tech so much (who'd have thought that possible?)... that he stopped talking to me. So I tried his mate and he said that the 6mm GC was aimed at American 243 market (ie Remingtons and Savages) but also very much at 6mm Creedmoor, which they expect to take off big time. Interesting.

 

[User00033]

This business of soft points pencilling on deer or foxes when driven very fast. I have vague memories from the 80s as a young fella, shooting small roe with 243 and what I suspect were old school 80gr Speer bullets that in my wisdom I decided to drive as fast as possible. Result: over penetration, under expansion, and long runners.

I could pick one of four soft points in .243 off my shelf and know that I would get a range of outcomes on a light bodied yearling fallow. Soft point construction varies widely and you have to be careful to make sure you know what kind you're using.

Softest on the shelf is the Sierra 80gr Blitz, hardest (by far) is the Hornady 85gr Interbond. I used to use the former on hares, and I occasionally use the latter on pigs. The Interbond will penetrate a medium pig shield and exit straight out the other side shield with a sensible sized hole. Big difference in performance to the Blitz, chalk and cheese. In between these two in the hardness stakes are the Sierra 85gr SP (1520) which I haven't used for donkeys years but were outstanding goats killers, and the trusted 100gr ProHunter which I use a great deal on deer.

In .223 for specific applications I use the 64gr Bonded Protected Point and there is no bullet I know off that will pencil on a soft target like that bullet will. Very good at penetrating bull skulls though.

So a soft point is not a ubiquitous term to be applied in anticipation of similar performance from all soft points, far from it.

 

[Tulloch]

Er @Tulloch... the .243 Remington is 1:9.125" and the .243 Savage is a 1:9.250". Big chunk of the American market right there. But that's off topic. But,,, seeing as how we're there already. I annoyed my friendly Sierra tech so much (who'd have thought that possible?)... that he stopped talking to me. So I tried his mate and he said that the 6mm GC was aimed at American 243 market (ie Remingtons and Savages) but also very much at 6mm Creedmoor, which they expect to take off big time. Interesting.

Yer I agree , I didnt mean the US market I meant the UK market , I wish I lived in the States so much but if I was there I would be moving to more the 6mm prc and Creedmoors as 7mm or Saums for hunting , but then the restrictions on calibre choice is far less than here, as well as powder and ammo choice and price. I did actually mean to say you cannot get a factory rifle easy in the UK in .243 faster than a 1-9twist, I just looked at what I said lol

I WAS actually thinking of changing my .243 to a 6mm Creedmoor but they are not easy to come by here either which is grrrrr.

Savage for instance in the UK are very few and far between

 

[Tulloch]

This business of soft points pencilling on deer or foxes when driven very fast. I have vague memories from the 80s as a young fella, shooting small roe with 243 and what I suspect were old school 80gr Speer bullets that in my wisdom I decided to drive as fast as possible. Result: over penetration, under expansion, and long runners.

I could pick one of four soft points in .243 off my shelf and know that I would get a range of outcomes on a light bodied yearling fallow. Soft point construction varies widely and you have to be careful to make sure you know what kind you're using.

Softest on the shelf is the Sierra 80gr Blitz, hardest (by far) is the Hornady 85gr Interbond. I used to use the former on hares, and I occasionally use the latter on pigs. The Interbond will penetrate a medium pig shield and exit straight out the other side shield with a sensible sized hole. Big difference in performance to the Blitz, chalk and cheese. In between these two in the hardness stakes are the Sierra 85gr SP (1520) which I haven't used for donkeys years but were outstanding goats killers, and the trusted 100gr ProHunter which I use a great deal on deer.

In .223 for specific applications I use the 64gr Bonded Protected Point and there is no bullet I know off that will pencil on a soft target like that bullet will. Very good at penetrating bull skulls though.

So a soft point is not a ubiquitous term to be applied in anticipation of similar performance from all soft points, far from it.

I use the Prohunter 100gr on my .243 for everything , it is not just inexpensive but it is also the only fecking round that gives me bullet on bullet accuracy through my Browning Abolt 2 with 24" barrel, It just will not work with anything any size that has a boat tail , only two rounds it likes is the 55gr blitzking or the 100gr Prohunters. low BC but does the job and the Prohunters shoot a nice 3065fps with a 3 SD so ideal for even that long fox shot, however as I said before it will pencil through a fox if not hit on bone of some sort which is 1 in 20 foxes ( shot around 36 from last summer to now)