Jon P
Well-Known Member
Trouble is electric collars are illegal to use in wales.
Stock proofing dogs
- Thread starter Ooops
- Start date
Lloyd90
Well-Known Member
Oh yes, I almost forgot.
Moved over the bridge to England about 5 years ago and lived here since.
Can only suggest people get their dogs broken to sheep young… Wales the land of sheep an all.
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
Oh yes it will and that is with judicious use of an e-collar.....an e-collar will stop even a Dingo from killing sheep/stock.
I never had to use one in all my life, I loaded thousands of cattle onto lorries, if a driver turned up with an electric prod, I would clear him off. We used an old boy, he was amazing, he never even used a stick mind you he had hands like barn shovels, a real fighting man & a giant. He was so calm round cattle they would just do as he wanted, & they always walked up that ramp. Fearfull cattle will get you killed, Dogs that get a taste for stock can be trained eventually, just tie em to a railway track.
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Ooops
Well-Known Member
Some very interesting comments, many thanks.
I deliberately didn’t add context to my original question because I wanted to understand the possible approaches that might be used on pups and you’ve kindly provided that, thank you.
Now I’d like to ask you specifically about adult dogs. I’ve had two incidents involving my dogs and I’d like to avoid any repeat performances
I adopted two adult lab sized mongrels, one a hound/pointer mix that had grown up feral and the other the spit & image of a Canaan. Both came to me as adults with no training or socialisation
Both are fascinated by goats & sheep, horses to a lesser extent
Both are steady when close by me
Both are triggered by stock that runs
Both have a high prey drive, the Canaans is off the scale
The difficult terrain & distances makes it nigh on impossible to administer timely correction
Neither dog is bothered by grazing or walking horses but the Canaan is triggered by cantering horses
The hound isn’t in anyway aggressive to stock, she never bites.
In fact she appears to try to encourage goats to chase her as if they too were dogs
When they don’t respond she will separate an animal & then quarter it until she can restrain it by laying her head and neck across its shoulders.
She’ll then stand quietly until I arrive.
She’s a sensitive dog and has responded well to corrections and additional training.
The Canaan has prey drive off the scale, if it runs he’ll chase & bite.
Once committed no amount of food treats, praise etc is worth more to him than the chase.
Obviously I do my best to avoid getting into such situations
I’ve actively sought out situations where I can sit or walk the dogs near stock
I’ve discouraged any semblance of undue interest
I’ve reward calmness with “the less I do the more I get” principle
In sensitive areas I’ve run the lad on a 10m lead
I’ve tried to exercise situational awareness but with the best will in the world sh*t happens.
For such times I need to teach & enforce much greater control especially when he reaches that magic “selective deafness distance”
At the time I looked into it and thought that a correctly used e collar would solve the problem but about the same time I thought that the UK had banned their use.
So how would you solve / teach this?
Are e collars illegal in England?
Is it possible to get an e collar that incorporates GPS tracking?
I think part the problem with the e collar controversy is that those that don't know assume it's all about frying a dog. That's just not the case, and would likely be counter productive. Some very well respected trainers use them regularly.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Thanks, some experiences are hard won.
Over a long and varied career I‘ve had a dogs leg broken when a horse ran it down and trampled it, another horse jumped into my garden and set about methodically hunting down and trampling a litter of pups. I’ve cordially loathed horses since.
One of my dogs slyed away and had a go at the neighbours free range chooks, 50 odd casualties.
I’ve had heavy cattle charge both me and the dogs and I’ve been on the scene when an otherwise trustworthy well trained hound took off after a hill ewe and pulled it down.
Large livestock is dangerous to both you and your dog, especially heavy cattle, they’ll try to trample the dog and dont care whether you’re in the way or not, so train the dog to stay clear of you when it happens.
Its shocking I know, but if you complain to the landowner having been attacked by their livestock they often react aggressively and take the totally unreasonable view that you shouldn’t have been there in the first place.
Sods think they own the place.
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
No e-collar?
A heavy hand,once again delivered judiciously,unfortunately it is next best or its the next line below.
In rural Australia if all fails is the lead.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Given the background I don't think that you’ll ever be able to fully relax with either dog around livestock, particularly that Canaan.
You need to get them used to ignoring stock on a lead and a long cord both singly and together, once that’s solid you can start to let them off one at a time, ideally I’d have a collar on it and set to max stimulation “just in case” but if can’t use one then put yourself in a position to get straight after it and give it a good hard smack of a cane. A big advantage of the collar is that its unobtrusive, you can make sparks jump out of the dogs eyeballs without anyone knowing. We’d never have heard of Fenton if he was wearing one.
If you have to use a stick or a collar use it, your dogs life may be at risk if you don’t
Do it one at a time, 2 dogs are impossible to control effectively for most people until the suckers are already trained. Once you can let them run singly with a degree of confidence that they wont go on a nixer, have a good think about what happens next.
2 dogs together make a pack, is it worth pushing the envelope or is what you have good enough?
Your choice, best of luck with the training
Ooops
Well-Known Member
@dunwater & @John Gryphon
Thanks for the advice and guidance gents, much appreciated.
What collars would you recommend I look at?
Are you aware of any collars that have both tracking and stim?
@dunwater do you know if its still legal to use a collar in the UK?
A heavy hand is difficult with him, because of his background, applied incorrectly he'd come back up the lead at me but it's no problem to be firm and get the point across. And he's super smart so he'll learn if I do my part.
A lead injection isn't an option, he's kept bad guys from getting in more than once so I owe him more than that.
But there's an awfully long way to go and I need it to fixed before we all return to UK.
The problem here is the terrain, it takes too long to cross to him so corrections might be delivered minutes later
I'll step this up
What the limit of their ability in learning this will be remains to be seen
Worst case scenario they'll have to wear basket muzzles when out
Thanks for the advice and guidance gents, much appreciated.
What collars would you recommend I look at?
Are you aware of any collars that have both tracking and stim?
@dunwater do you know if its still legal to use a collar in the UK?
It seems an e collar may be possible after all, fingers crossed. If ever there was a dog that needs a collar its him
A heavy hand is difficult with him, because of his background, applied incorrectly he'd come back up the lead at me but it's no problem to be firm and get the point across. And he's super smart so he'll learn if I do my part.
A lead injection isn't an option, he's kept bad guys from getting in more than once so I owe him more than that.
You may well be right, although there's definitely been improvement in both of them, especially with the bitch.
But there's an awfully long way to go and I need it to fixed before we all return to UK.
The problem here is the terrain, it takes too long to cross to him so corrections might be delivered minutes later
I'll step this upUnderstood.
I don't feel that I'm expecting too much of either of them and that if I do my part they'll both learn.
What the limit of their ability in learning this will be remains to be seen
Worst case scenario they'll have to wear basket muzzles when out
Then an e collar will be your only solution, older dogs will never get out of this problem, its not the dogs safety that I would worry about, its your own, cows with new born calves can turn into killers, if a dog runs back to you for safety, then its time to run. Once had a cow with a new born chase me over 3 strands of barbed wire, still got the scars, the only way I could get to the calf to castrate & ear tag it was to pick a feed ring up with the tele handler & drop it over the calf, shin up the boom, & drop into the feed ring with the calf, bit like a shark cage! by the time I got out there wasn't much left of the feed ring.
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Jon P
Well-Known Member
You have definitely got your work cut out by the sound of it.
muzzles won’t help the situation as the dogs are still worrying the livestock well before they get a chance to lock on.
Farmers around me will shoot dogs on sight and ask questions later. This subject even made the BBC 10 pm news last night with the increase in livestock worrying. They are looking at tightening up the legislation to protect livestock.
good luck with your training
Ooops
Well-Known Member
Understood and I wouldn't blame them for it either.
Sad day though and best avoided
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
There are various collars available, the ones with the tracker app are eye wateringly expensive, say 1K, but worth it in heavy forest or wide open spaces. The unit I use is a cheap and 2 cheerful collars and a remote control control job off eBay.
It gives the option to buzz, ping or shock either or both up to 1K or so, more than enough for me, total cost was about a hundred quid.
I use it to reinforce already learned commands at a distance and to prevent stock chasing only. I have no idea if they’re illegal in England but the KC is vehemently opposed to their use.
Your problem is that you have an adult dog that knows what it likes and doesn’t much care what you want, that always takes a lot of work. The collar would be my preferred option because it works at a distance but you have to start with the basics, get him solid on a lead and close in first, my guess is that you’ll manage that fairly quickly but he’ll break as soon as he’s off the lead and a out a bit, you have to act before he builds up to a full run.
At the moment he knows what he likes and he’s convinced that you can do nothing about it when he takes off, you need to persuade him otherwise.
It gives the option to buzz, ping or shock either or both up to 1K or so, more than enough for me, total cost was about a hundred quid.
I use it to reinforce already learned commands at a distance and to prevent stock chasing only. I have no idea if they’re illegal in England but the KC is vehemently opposed to their use.
Your problem is that you have an adult dog that knows what it likes and doesn’t much care what you want, that always takes a lot of work. The collar would be my preferred option because it works at a distance but you have to start with the basics, get him solid on a lead and close in first, my guess is that you’ll manage that fairly quickly but he’ll break as soon as he’s off the lead and a out a bit, you have to act before he builds up to a full run.
At the moment he knows what he likes and he’s convinced that you can do nothing about it when he takes off, you need to persuade him otherwise.
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John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
The moment they get to lets say a sheep after a run is the time to apply the control. Dogs soon learn that sheep "bite back hard" and it is an incredibly quick learning curve for them. No owner shouting,arm waving etc Once a dog has learned this the buzzer is enough warning to keep him/her on track,if not complying by the second 'buzz' then the stimulant is administered. I stress that dogs learn basically in one lesson.
My old bitch can be at times a 'bitch' and every couple of years she gets the collar on and without even having to use it she is the most compliant bitch there is as she remembers from a dozen years ago.
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My old bitch can be at times a 'bitch' and every couple of years she gets the collar on and without even having to use it she is the most compliant bitch there is as she remembers from a dozen years ago.
Got a bull that wont go up the yards cattle race into the truck? One ton bulls are immovable until they are introduced to the yellow dog.
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Ooops
Well-Known Member
Sounds perfect, any chance of a link or brand and model number?
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Atertek is the brand ( I think) but have a search on the bay or Amazon, there’s lots out there.
Caution, if you leave 2 dogs together with the collars on, the sods chew them off each other.
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