Straight Pull AR for stalking?

[Bowland blades]

Well one of my old wildfowling pans had a police firearms team Helicopter shouting out commands at him while out for geese on the saltings wildfowling wearing a balaclava . We must therefore remember what we look like to others !
There is no advantage to a straight pull when stalking deer . A semi -Auto would be on serious culling tasks because 3 or 4 is difficult to pull off unless your real close and there is a big steep face in-front of the deer . But still its not " needed"
Remember only a disabled shooter would be allowed to shoot a semi auto shotgun on a driven bird day , perhaps ?
I have refused a shooting mate to bring his Black straight pull on a foxing session and no way nobody gets to wear a balaclava along with one of those LOL

 

[Dragonfly Ordnance]

For smaller calibres like .223 the straight-pulls can work well, however when you get to larger calibres like .308 the bigger case size coupled with parallel sides means primary extraction can be an issue due to the surface area of the case gripping the chamber walls.

This can be mitigated to a degree by the builder, but ammunition selection may be limited.

In semi-automatic guise the bolt carrier being driven back by the gas has the power to rotate the bolt and extract the cartridge, when you are relying on the MK1 arm with a charging handle not designed for the job it can be seriously problematic. A dedicated charger fixed to the bolt carrier will help.

As mentioned above, the bolt is driven home by the return spring and is not a noiseless operation. On rifles which have a forward assist, the bolt can be controlled into position (though this can cause feeding issues) and the forward assist used to make sure it is in battery. Larger AR10/AR308 rifles generally do not have a forward assist, so that would not be an option. You would have to be comfortable with going ‘cocked and locked’ as it were.

In terms of rifles, I favour the LMT though have only shot them in semi-auto. To reduce weight, M-LOK forend is lighter than the quad rail. I'm not sure what was imported in straight-pull, I have only seen the quad rail types.

As others have noted, these rifles do appear more intimidating to a casual observer. I'm not sure whether the general public would differentiate between them and be more inclined to call the police than if someone carried a more traditional-looking rifle. I suspect, a person who is likely to call the police would probably do so regardless of whether they saw someone with a wood-stocked airgun or an LMT.

 

[viking90]

Having primarily shot and stalked/foxed with straight pulls from the "eastern block" I can't see any problem using an AR. If I had to use bolt actions only it would suck whatever fun is left in the sport out of it for me. As for people seeing a black rifle and panicking I tend to use the issued canvas scope cover which covers most of the action. It's no harder to remove than one of those neoprene scope jackets. The other thing that I changed is the sling as the metal hook at the barrel end likes to rattle so I went for and IDF sling that's silent. Apart from that if you start with one in the chamber you don't have to worry about noise when cocking.

 

[Pete_Cambs]

Lots of mention of noise - is an AR based straight pull any noisier than say a Beretta BRX1, Blaser R8 or Mauser M25?

 

[Heym SR20]

Lots of mention of noise - is an AR based straight pull any noisier than say a Beretta BRX1, Blaser R8 or Mauser M25?

Yes - the straight pulls you mention all need forward movement of the bolt handle. An AR straight pull still has the spring return so they make a big clatter as you chamber the round. And if you don’t let them fly they they don’t chamber properly.

Semi automatic rifles are great to use in their original state. As a cadet and out in Africa I shot the SLR / FN FAL - lovely thing to use. But semi automatics are not designed to work to be converted to a straight pull.

In the UK if you want an AR for range use get a 22 LR one, and have the fun of being able to do rapid fire. And 50 rds cost about the same as 10 223.

For a 6.5 cm get a bolt action rifle. You won’t go wrong with a basic T3x. You can always swap it into a chassis type stock if you still have the desire.

 

[Husky]

I had a German guest turn up with a HK770 about ten years ago, what a clatter that made when loading it !

 

[Electric Ian]

I think you would regret the decision 30 seconds after revealing your weapon to other stalkers.

 

[Dibal]

I have one in .223 which is conditioned for use on deer/fox etc and does see occasional forays into the field for those uses. It also gets used extensively on ranges for general stuff and CSR comps.
I disposed of my previous .223 Howa because whilst brilliant in the field it was hopeless as a CSR rifle and with cabinet space a premium I changed to something to do both. I do have a dedicated larger calibre stalking rifle which I tend to use exclusively for stalking anyway. The .223 enables me to though to tackle small deer/foxes where circumstances favour it.
But there are cons to a straight pull AR. They're generally short so slinging is an issue - hung conventionally on your shoulder the muzzle will be below head height (even with a moderator fitted) therefore a round in the chamber is absolutely a no no if you tend to stalk with a rifle in that condition. There are slinging options but they're likely to slow deployment. As others have said too noise is an issue - you must let the bolt slam shut and this isn't ideal when stalking or foxing. I found this out when i bumped into a fox the first night I took the rifle out and had to rack it to chamber the round. Another thing to note is the safety is much easier to inadvertently knock off than on a conventional sporting rifle. I also use quad sticks exclusively when out in the field and AR's, being short, are a little more fiddly to get set up tbh.
That said If you tend to use highseats or fixed positions a lot it's just a short rifle and perfectly useful once loaded and made ready. On balance if you're starting from fresh a conventional sporting rifle makes more sense tbh for field use - good slings are around now to keep the rifle upright and high on your back, they're quicker and easier to deploy and the safety is generally better positioned. My AR serves almost exclusively one role but remains useful for those days and nights I don't need 2.5 times the energy.

 

[Pete_Cambs]

I wasn’t actually planning on getting one as such, was more a case of asking if it was viable.

I’ll likely get a Mauser or Tilla in 6.5CM and something racier in .308 as a target gun. I’ve not got .223 on my application and not sure how they’ll feel about adding it considering I’ve asked for 6.5cm, .303 British and .308W.

Insightful info on them though so appreciate the comments.

 

[Sealgair nam fiadh]

I had a German guest turn up with a HK770 about ten years ago, what a clatter that made when loading it !

One of these ?

 

[Karhumies]

I mean, i use an AK from time to time. Ofcourse here in Finland seeing people with AK/RK guns at a game drive is nothing new (Valmet petra!) but its all up to what you consider feasible and my uncle lived in Schotland and i have visited many times and i personally wouldnt dare to even bring my shotgun over! (pistol grip, adjustable stock, red dot optic)
I hear people nowadays are even more hysterical.

But over here people go grouse hunting with an RK-95 in 5.56 or a Valmet petra AK in 30-06.

Would i pick it over a bolt action for general deer stalking? never..... why kneecap accuracy by even a centimeter when you should only need one shot.

I like running my AK in 308 when for instance culling larger vermin/ problem deer at 100m or less tho, i learned the benefit when i encountered a group of 5 racoondog coming out of a drainage tunnel under the road. I shot one and the rest scampered before i got back on target, at that point at running targets i wounded one and missed another.

similar scenario, i see 2 racoondog approaching a grazing hare. I pop the hare and culll the vermin in a matter of seconds. 2 bounties to cash in and some meat for the pot.

Here ya go

 

[MarinePMI]

For smaller calibres like .223 the straight-pulls can work well, however when you get to larger calibres like .308 the bigger case size coupled with parallel sides means primary extraction can be an issue due to the surface area of the case gripping the chamber walls.

This can be mitigated to a degree by the builder, but ammunition selection may be limited.

In semi-automatic guise the bolt carrier being driven back by the gas has the power to rotate the bolt and extract the cartridge, when you are relying on the MK1 arm with a charging handle not designed for the job it can be seriously problematic. A dedicated charger fixed to the bolt carrier will help.

As mentioned above, the bolt is driven home by the return spring and is not a noiseless operation. On rifles which have a forward assist, the bolt can be controlled into position (though this can cause feeding issues) and the forward assist used to make sure it is in battery. Larger AR10/AR308 rifles generally do not have a forward assist, so that would not be an option. You would have to be comfortable with going ‘cocked and locked’ as it were.

In terms of rifles, I favour the LMT though have only shot them in semi-auto. To reduce weight, M-LOK forend is lighter than the quad rail. I'm not sure what was imported in straight-pull, I have only seen the quad rail types.

As others have noted, these rifles do appear more intimidating to a casual observer. I'm not sure whether the general public would differentiate between them and be more inclined to call the police than if someone carried a more traditional-looking rifle. I suspect, a person who is likely to call the police would probably do so regardless of whether they saw someone with a wood-stocked airgun or an LMT.

This will be the major problem with a large frame AR style rifle. The OP should either go with an standard AR compatible cartridge (and small frame AR action) like 6.5 Grendel, or think seriously about a straight pull bolt action or the like. (As I believe you're pointing out.)

Personally, I feel a straight pull, large frame, AR is not very practical. You gain weight and complexity, and gain nothing otherwise, if it isn't a semi-auto.

 

[Dragonfly Ordnance]

This will be the major problem with a large frame AR style rifle. The OP should either go with an standard AR compatible cartridge (and small frame AR action) like 6.5 Grendel, or think seriously about a straight pull bolt action or the like. (As I believe you're pointing out.)

Personally, I feel a straight pull, large frame, AR is not very practical. You gain weight and complexity, and gain nothing otherwise, if it isn't a semi-auto.

They can run well as straight-pull in 5.56, .300, etc. but you are correct, the larger calibre ones can be problematic.

Regrettably, no semi-auto full-bore in the UK since '88, so a standard turn-bolt or rifle designed as a straight-pull would be a better choice. Though, @Jagdmatch is successfully running an LMT from their photo and sometimes its nice to have what you want even if it can’t self-load.

I do like the LMTs!

 

[Jagdmatch]

Mine is an LMT. No issues at all with primary extraction with factory ammunition and I just use a normal charging handle rather than than a conversion. As a regular user of self loading ARs in 308 the worst offenders are gas piston guns rather than the direct impingement. HK 417 is very unreliable and certainly not MOA capable with any decent ammunition. (I think the G3 was better)
The weight is a factor so as I said before high seats or static positions.

 

[Smellydog]

Many mis understand how an auto works.
Most believe the gas drives the bolt back and the bolt drags the case out.
Wrong.
The residual pressure drives the case out driving the bolt rearward after some high pressure gas has unlocked the bolt.
Thus a straight pull operated version of an auto design has a huge disadvantage in the lack of primary extraction.

Just don't bother. It's not cool and it's not clever.

 

[Klenchblaize]

One of these ?
View attachment 410074

K

 

[Husky]

That's the one , he had a ten shot magazine with it.
Got a bit of a surprise when I saw it.

 

[jthyttin]

The residual pressure drives the case out driving the bolt rearward after some high pressure gas has unlocked the bolt.

No it won't. There will be no residual pressure at the time bolt has been unlocked, in AR-15/10 direct inpingement system (although it's not really direct inpingement, people use to call it that).

All of the "driving force" will come from the gas that's injected inside the bolt carrier group (BCG) and it's actually the bolt carrier that's driven back, and unlocks the bolt via cam surface. After the bolt is unlocked, it will be "dragged along" by the carrier (since the cut in carrier has rear position, forward position and the cam surface between those, for the bolt).

 

[Smellydog]

No it won't. There will be no residual pressure at the time bolt has been unlocked, in AR-15/10 direct inpingement system (although it's not really direct inpingement, people use to call it that).

All of the "driving force" will come from the gas that's injected inside the bolt carrier group (BCG) and it's actually the bolt carrier that's driven back, and unlocks the bolt via cam surface. After the bolt is unlocked, it will be "dragged along" by the carrier (since the cut in carrier has rear position, forward position and the cam surface between those, for the bolt).

There will be residual pressure in the barrel during unlocking as the gas is bled off for the BCG before the muzzle.
The gas take off is positioned so residual aids extraction instead of solely relying on the BCG and it's tiny extractor acting on a tiny brass rim.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

I had a German guest turn up with a HK770 about ten years ago, what a clatter that made when loading it !

He broke the UK law then? On his visitors cert application, perhaps he did not mention that it was a semi auto and the FEO was non the wiser. All's well that ends well.
I am sure he meant no offence officer.