enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Received this is a round robin from a shoot broker who's emails I subscribe to:
Tip or not to tip and how much.
How much to tip on a shoot day and why do we tip is a question that that does come up from time to time.
Tipping the keeper on a shoot day dates back to an earlier age when it was customary for the visiting gun to show his appreciation of the days sport by slipping the keeper a bit of cash, this part of our shooting history and tradition is still practiced today and has become accepted as a satisfactory way to end the day before setting off home, it happens like this, you are offered a brace of birds in the feather or as is more common ready pre-packed, and as you accept you deftly pass the keeper a bit of the folding stuff that he will equally as deftly slip into his pocket. In the main tipping has always been discretionary and something private between you and the keeper but in the commercial world that we live it has become an established part of the cost of the day including the amount.
Why am I mentioning this now, well a couple of keepers and shoot captains have mentioned that some guns have been shall we say “less than generous” in showing their appreciation, now in the past I have resisted the route taken on some shoots whereby the captain tells the guns how much the tip is and even in some cases collects it up before handing it over, I have always felt that the tip should be confidential but this confidence can be used to hide giving less than a modest amount.
So how much is acceptable and might be expected as a tip, there is of course a bit of a sliding scale determined by the bag size, I’m not a big fan of this though it could be argued that if you can afford to shoot big days you can afford a big tip, our days are a bit more modest at between 100 and 150 birds, but even so a reasonable tip should be expected, in years past I never gave less than £30, then it was £40, now in the current climate I feel that £50 is a far more appropriate figure for a 150 bird day with £40 for a 100 bird day, and this should always be in your mind as a base figure, if you feel that your day has exceeded expectations in terms of the hospitality or members of staff have just gone that extra mile to help you have a good day you should bare this in mind when taking a few notes out of your wallet, offering a little more won’t go unnoticed and will be remembered as will those that were less than generous, also the tip money may well be shared with under-keepers and staff.
So let’s not forget that yes we pay good money to shoot and we are hugely privileged to be able to do what we do, so it is equally as important to stretch our thanks another yard or two at the end, you will feel better for it, and it saves me having to go down the “collection” route.
This is, firstly, not America and let us not follow the path of "in the commercial world that we live it has become an established part of the cost of the day including the amount" and import American tipping ethos.
My thoughts being that on an individual stalk then of course that is different. Your stalker is the one doing all the work. Taking you out, finding the beast, getting you into a position to take a shot at the beast. And then doing the gralloch and the recovery of the carcass.
On a driven day it is a team. The keeper is there to marshal his beaters and his stops. The number of birds he has available to present is between him and the shoot's host. If he has those birds present in abundance it a matter for the shoot host's satisfaction. If there are few then it is to the shoot's host's displeasure especially where a day of x number of birds has been sold. But without the beaters and the stops there would be no birds pushed over the gun line. Some of the beaters will have braved thorn and bramble to put up that reluctant bird or birds that would otherwise run forward but not fly. Yet they do not receive a tip...only the keeper?
So I wrote back the below in relation to topping on a let day where the guns have been sold a day on the commercial basis of an expectation of a certain number of birds at £XXX per bird. And in respect to that sort of a wholly commercial day only.
Here is my reply:
"That's an interesting comment on tips. Here's my thoughts on when you are receiving tips from a group of clients as they say "Goodbye". I have worked for the last twenty-six years as a tour manager for a travel company. Usually, now with thirty-six to twenty-six clients. Where I am organising their drivers and any providing the liaison between them and other matters such as booked entertainments and accommodation.
I have always told the clients if it is raised "I have been asked about tips. If you wish to tip that is very kind. If you do not wish to that is absolutely your right and at your discretion. But always on an individual basis and never (as some may not wish to tip) by a hat or a cap passed around". The tip is given in a handshake and is straightaway never looked at but placed in a back pocket. It is only after all the tips have been given and put safely away that they are then...when the clients have departed...taken out, sorted and counted up.
There is never an attempt to see who is giving you how much at the moment the tip passes and to do so would be unseemly. Nor is any measure of the worth of a client made in comparison to the value of their tip. For some £10 is a lot, for others £40 isn't a lot but, to them, small change. So the value of a tip may be when spent in its money's worth. But in truth the real way to measure the worth of a tip and the appreciation you've received from a client is that unknown factor of what was the value of that money to them.
So if a keeper or other shoot servant is making effort to determine and identify how much tip he or she has gotten from each client that, at least in my opinion, is pretty shameful behaviour. A tip is a bonus. It is not an entitlement. Yes, it is nice to have, but it should be always handled as much as possible such that its amount can never be linked back to its donor. And to try to do so is approaching the reprehensible."
What are the thoughts of other SD members?
Tip or not to tip and how much.
How much to tip on a shoot day and why do we tip is a question that that does come up from time to time.
Tipping the keeper on a shoot day dates back to an earlier age when it was customary for the visiting gun to show his appreciation of the days sport by slipping the keeper a bit of cash, this part of our shooting history and tradition is still practiced today and has become accepted as a satisfactory way to end the day before setting off home, it happens like this, you are offered a brace of birds in the feather or as is more common ready pre-packed, and as you accept you deftly pass the keeper a bit of the folding stuff that he will equally as deftly slip into his pocket. In the main tipping has always been discretionary and something private between you and the keeper but in the commercial world that we live it has become an established part of the cost of the day including the amount.
Why am I mentioning this now, well a couple of keepers and shoot captains have mentioned that some guns have been shall we say “less than generous” in showing their appreciation, now in the past I have resisted the route taken on some shoots whereby the captain tells the guns how much the tip is and even in some cases collects it up before handing it over, I have always felt that the tip should be confidential but this confidence can be used to hide giving less than a modest amount.
So how much is acceptable and might be expected as a tip, there is of course a bit of a sliding scale determined by the bag size, I’m not a big fan of this though it could be argued that if you can afford to shoot big days you can afford a big tip, our days are a bit more modest at between 100 and 150 birds, but even so a reasonable tip should be expected, in years past I never gave less than £30, then it was £40, now in the current climate I feel that £50 is a far more appropriate figure for a 150 bird day with £40 for a 100 bird day, and this should always be in your mind as a base figure, if you feel that your day has exceeded expectations in terms of the hospitality or members of staff have just gone that extra mile to help you have a good day you should bare this in mind when taking a few notes out of your wallet, offering a little more won’t go unnoticed and will be remembered as will those that were less than generous, also the tip money may well be shared with under-keepers and staff.
So let’s not forget that yes we pay good money to shoot and we are hugely privileged to be able to do what we do, so it is equally as important to stretch our thanks another yard or two at the end, you will feel better for it, and it saves me having to go down the “collection” route.
This is, firstly, not America and let us not follow the path of "in the commercial world that we live it has become an established part of the cost of the day including the amount" and import American tipping ethos.
My thoughts being that on an individual stalk then of course that is different. Your stalker is the one doing all the work. Taking you out, finding the beast, getting you into a position to take a shot at the beast. And then doing the gralloch and the recovery of the carcass.
On a driven day it is a team. The keeper is there to marshal his beaters and his stops. The number of birds he has available to present is between him and the shoot's host. If he has those birds present in abundance it a matter for the shoot host's satisfaction. If there are few then it is to the shoot's host's displeasure especially where a day of x number of birds has been sold. But without the beaters and the stops there would be no birds pushed over the gun line. Some of the beaters will have braved thorn and bramble to put up that reluctant bird or birds that would otherwise run forward but not fly. Yet they do not receive a tip...only the keeper?
So I wrote back the below in relation to topping on a let day where the guns have been sold a day on the commercial basis of an expectation of a certain number of birds at £XXX per bird. And in respect to that sort of a wholly commercial day only.
Here is my reply:
"That's an interesting comment on tips. Here's my thoughts on when you are receiving tips from a group of clients as they say "Goodbye". I have worked for the last twenty-six years as a tour manager for a travel company. Usually, now with thirty-six to twenty-six clients. Where I am organising their drivers and any providing the liaison between them and other matters such as booked entertainments and accommodation.
I have always told the clients if it is raised "I have been asked about tips. If you wish to tip that is very kind. If you do not wish to that is absolutely your right and at your discretion. But always on an individual basis and never (as some may not wish to tip) by a hat or a cap passed around". The tip is given in a handshake and is straightaway never looked at but placed in a back pocket. It is only after all the tips have been given and put safely away that they are then...when the clients have departed...taken out, sorted and counted up.
There is never an attempt to see who is giving you how much at the moment the tip passes and to do so would be unseemly. Nor is any measure of the worth of a client made in comparison to the value of their tip. For some £10 is a lot, for others £40 isn't a lot but, to them, small change. So the value of a tip may be when spent in its money's worth. But in truth the real way to measure the worth of a tip and the appreciation you've received from a client is that unknown factor of what was the value of that money to them.
So if a keeper or other shoot servant is making effort to determine and identify how much tip he or she has gotten from each client that, at least in my opinion, is pretty shameful behaviour. A tip is a bonus. It is not an entitlement. Yes, it is nice to have, but it should be always handled as much as possible such that its amount can never be linked back to its donor. And to try to do so is approaching the reprehensible."
What are the thoughts of other SD members?
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