Vets - are their bills too large?

I would not be surprised if it was into 4 figures.

£1,979 in 2010/11 per capita.

Key statistics on the NHS


29,900,000 taxpayers in the UK

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDoQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hmrc.gov.uk%2Fstatistics%2Ftax-statistics%2Ftable2-1.pdf&ei=sgtwU6fzBO2h7AaWnICgBw&usg=AFQjCNEo6Hpw35nClIq_90LF-7bHUIFXeQ&sig2=Rqr8zI1w6eqwawDgzhH4Mg&bvm=bv.66330100,d.ZWU&cad=rja

Population of 63.3 million in 2012 (Wikipedia)

That is a cost PER TAXPAYER of £4189 each.

(I've not visited a doctor in the last 12 months...)
 
I think the pricing structure might have something to do with this, to a farmer an animal has only so much (financial) worth... Beyond a certain expenditure it it's not financially viable to pay out substantially more than the animal is worth....... It is more financially viable to put the animal down - which would result in less money for the vet! So prices are more likely to reflect this.

Conversely a family pet (such as a dog) is usually a much loved addition to the family, people are caught up in what really amounts to emotional blackmail over generally over inflated vet charges and some massively so! Add to this that in our days, people tend to take out pet insurance. This in itself gives another opportunity to ramp up the charges even further and it's not too difficult to see why operations or treatment on pets cost can cost so much.

More like the cow, can be tied up in the farmers barn, if you are lucky under lights. So facility costs are his. Hopefully he can give you a helping hand, so no additional labour costs.

Cow stands upright, so flank incision under Local anaesthetic, so no GA costs, no nurse to monitor GA, no operating table costs. Cannot see your average Lab standing on a table and wagging his/her tail while you use your surgical cutlery inside their abdomen.

Cow walks off into the barn / field post surgery so no kennels / monitoring costs. Cows tend to be a lot tougher than our canine/feline friends.

Farmers are a very pragmatic type of client, your average small animal client expects a certain finesse or slightly different service!

The intricacy of cow abdominal surgery is also not at the same levels as small animal abdominal surgery for very practical reasons, and not just costs

So cost differentials can be explained, you simply have to consider things and acquire a bit of first hand knowledge of the profession.

Rather than simply throw accusations / abuse at people, who as a profession genuinely care about the service they give to their client's animals, why not find out a little bit more of how things work.

Alternatively just go to bed!!

Regards,

HL
 
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What annoys me is the people who seem to think they can acquire an animal and then assume the world owes them a rich and rewarding future simply because they have a dependent.... it's like emotional blackmail... "well you 'have' to offer treatment for my animal for £xx because I have added up the cost of a couple of bandages and some sutures which is the 'physical' cost of the 'repair'.

It's like paying Quickfit 25 pence for the raw materials of the rubber patch which they fitted to your puncture..... well that's the ickle piece of rubber paid for... what about the person's wages to fit it, the building, the overheads, the training, the insurance???
 
More like the cow, can be tied up in the farmers barn, if you are lucky under lights. So facility costs are his. Hopefully he can give you a helping hand, so no additional labour costs.

Cow stands upright, so flank incision under Local anaesthetic, so no GA costs, no nurse to monitor GA, no operating table costs. Cannot see your average Lab standing on a table and wagging his/her tail while you use your surgical cutlery inside their abdomen.

Cow walks off into the barn / field post surgery so no kennels / monitoring costs. Cows tend to be a lot tougher than our canine/feline friends.

Farmers are a very pragmatic type of client, your average small animal client expects a certain finesse or slightly different service!

The intricacy of cow abdominal surgery is also not at the same levels as small animal abdominal surgery for very practical reasons, and not just costs

So cost differentials can be explained, you simply have to consider things and acquire a bit of first hand knowledge of the profession.

Rather than simply throw accusations / abuse at people, who as a profession genuinely care about the service they give to their client's animals, why not find out a little bit more of how things work.

Alternatively just go to bed!!

Regards,

HL

Highlander my dear chap.... I think maybe you are the one that should be retiring to bed!..... You obviously have a vested interest in this thread, but generally I think your views on justifiable charges are in the minority and to be honest, I wouldn't expect you to say otherwise.....I wasn't aware that I was throwing abuse at people as you have suggested..... Merely pointing out what I myself, along with many others have experienced.

I don't for one minute go along with your suggestion that the introduction of pet insurance hasn't artificially inflated prices. It seems to me that you are on the road of trying to defend the indefensible with that view.... Or just maybe, you personally, have a passion to practice your skills without the need to eek out every penny you can from your customers, If that is the case then I applaud you for it, though I would suggest that you will probably find that many of your fellow veterinarians might not quite operate to your same high ethical standards on that one.

I think it maybe wise for us to agree to disagree on the topic of this thread.

Regards

PT
 
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Would it surprise anyone that the service contract for our CT scanner is circa £20k per year and that is on a preferential rate for low volumes of scans being done. Our running costs are huge. We try to offer an excellent level of service by properly approved and recognised specialists and do so at between 30 and 50% less than our competitors. I do so because I would rather help more clients than work less hard and earn the same. Perhaps I'm stupid but that is a decision that I have made for the best of reasons. I do not dispute that there are some very business minded practices around where the bottom line is the most important thing but please do not tar all of us with the same brush please.
 
Highlander, my apologies, it was not yourself that made the comment regarding pet insurance on this thread it was another vet .

Regards
PT.
 
I don't think anyone would dispute that. The arguments seem to be about what contsitutes 'good care', and about how much money it should cost.

It seems to me that pet insurance providers are working the same magic on vets as private health insurers have done on medical practitioners.

In any case, insurance or no the vet's bill still gets paid by the owner. It seems to me that if you buy insurance, you're paying the insurers' salaries as well as the vet who, from the anecdotes here at least, might well be charging/treating differently in the case of insured animals.

The situtation is tough indeed for those who dont have enough rhino lying about to take a bill for a couple of grand on the chin.

Clinically, could you not look at a dog (for dog it was, not cat) with a skin problem of that sort and take a punt on a bit of a zinc supplement? Not high-tech, not expensive and I imagine not clinically risky.

Vet knew I was insured....what more can I say....
 
Highlander, my apologies, it was not yourself that made the comment regarding pet insurance on this thread it was another vet .

Regards
PT.

Quite alright old chap.
Sorry must dash - need to take the Purdeys in for servicing, ready for the 12th, and have to fill the Aston with fuel first.

Damn, now where has the House Keeper put my keys.

"Sorry what was that Jeeves? The Pilot is saying the flight plan to Monte Carlo has been logged, excellent!"

regards,

HL
 
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There are garages charging over £100 per hour to service a car. A car which tells them via intelligent diagnostics if there is anything wrong. Then slap a bill on the counter for 4hrs work????? Really? To change oil and maybe 3 or 4 filters? Plus a few checks here and there???? Anyway, don't mean to upset any mechanics...

Here is my last bill from the vets for removal of a large mammary tumour from my 9 year old GWP.

1 x GA Large Dog £57.38
0.1 x calmivet 5mg 50ml inj £3.36
2 x Vetergesic Vial £9.34
13 Propoflo Plus £8.46
1 x x-Ray £53.17
70 x Mammary Mass Removal £207.50
1 x Gloves Gammex Sterile 6.5 £0.06
10 x Gauze swab 10x10cm 8ply £0.80
1 x G Irving S ets coiled £4.83
1 x Aqupharm No 11 500ML £5.72
2 x suture PDS 2/0 W9380h £11.80
1 x disposable pack B £2.10
1 x drip dog £34.01
1 4 Noroclav 50ml SA per ml £3.95
1 12 x Loxicom 5mg/ml injection 10ml £7.95
2 x Vetergesic Vial @5.40pm £9.34
21 Noroclav tabs 250mg £9.34
1 x Loxicom 1.5mg/ml oral 32ml £13.77
1 x Hospitalise medium dog £13.60
2 8 x Betamox LA (SA) per ml £3.48

Total (including £93.14 VAT!!!!!!!) £558.88 ( I may have missed something out from the list)

Other than the usual expense for worming tabs or antibiotics, this is the first large(ish) bill I have had for years and I've always got at least 4 dogs in the kennels.

It was a complicated and lengthy operation. The actual cost of the OP (as in vets time for their labour) was £200. That is not expensive in my eyes for two vets time plus a nurse to carry out procedure that has given the dog a new lease of life.

For or what its worth, before the OP I had decided to put her down, the vet said it was the right decision.......... But so would be giving her a chance with the OP. They said if they opened her up after the GA, and found the cancer had spread they would just not revive her. The X-Ray was to check for other tumours, which was clear. The decision to incur the expense was nothing to do with sentiment. very clear to me. Dog worth saving as still young enough and otherwise fit, she gets the chance realistically.....

Who on here just looks at the final bill and does not stop to consider all the other incidentals like this list that in fact are absolutely necessary for certain treatments?

I see far more justifiable costs in veterinary treatment than many other things we pay for that are just accepted without question....
 
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actually vets make their money not from their hourly rate but from the mark up on the drugs.
This I know first hand.
Often we are talking 200 - 300 % mark up on the drugs.

I am not saying they are expensive though as its a tough job.
Vets (not partners) don't actually get paid as much as you may think. Especially considering they train for the same time and level as a GP or such.
They also have one of the highest rates of suicide.
 
You may not have visited the Doctors, however it is all there in the backround should you need to visit them.
That requires cost.
Its all very well saying I haven't used them but unless you waiver the right for medical assistance for the rest of your life then
the on going cost is only fair.

Not sure if that was your argument or not, but just using your figures to highlight a fact.
Often I hear people say "I have paid in and not used it" when actually even though you have not used it, it is there should you need it and I am
sure all these people will use it and expect a fully operational and top class service when they do!

£1,979 in 2010/11 per capita.

Key statistics on the NHS


29,900,000 taxpayers in the UK

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...w6eqwawDgzhH4Mg&bvm=bv.66330100,d.ZWU&cad=rja

Population of 63.3 million in 2012 (Wikipedia)

That is a cost PER TAXPAYER of £4189 each.

(I've not visited a doctor in the last 12 months...)
 
Easy - there is not quite the finesse requires on the cow.
The service is done "onsite"
usually no nurses, receptionists, building costs ect ect.
Ex ray is done using a portable machine on the cow - the dog gets full on exray with all the latest gubbins.
No after care on a cow - usually the farmer gets any injections needed to administer themselves.
No over night fees for the cow - the dog stays overnight and gets visited by a nures a number of time through the night.

It all costs money!

Actually from my experience there is more profit in large animal than small animal vetenary.

I too question how it can be only £300 to perform complicated gastro surgery on a dairy cow, but almost 4 times that amount to perform a similar operation on a dog.

A mate of mine is a horse vet, he wont do pets as he says he cant get his hands up dogs and cats
yes the meds are more, but the op is probably easier on a cow.
 
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Does anyone realise what it costs our university graduates to get through the courses. £9000 a year, and what does it take 4 years and 4 years with little money to spend while they are doing it. They deserve good wages for what they do apart from the stress it takes them to get there. When they have surgeries to pay for and vehicles and staff also the insurances. If you take all this into consideration they do not get as much as one thinks.We know there are some rip off merchants but they are in every walk of life. You should always get a price before commencement of treatment and check around.
 
Easy - there is not quite the finesse requires on the cow.
The service is done "onsite"
usually no nurses, receptionists, building costs ect ect.
Ex ray is done using a portable machine on the cow - the dog gets full on exray with all the latest gubbins.
No after care on a cow - usually the farmer gets any injections needed to administer themselves.
No over night fees for the cow - the dog stays overnight and gets visited by a nures a number of time through the night.

It all costs money!

Actually from my experience there is more profit in large animal than small animal vetenary.

Any reason why this sort of service couldn't be offered to dog owners? I would much rather have a dog in my own kennels for post op care, than in a strange place being cared for by unknown people. I can legally inject pigs cattle and sheep, but not dogs? Why?

Whilst on a recent trip abroad we took a dog to get cleaned up by a vet in Hungary. General anesthetic was used. In the UK this would have been cause for the animal to stay in over night, with associated costs. In Hungary the animal was returned to us still unconscious and we were responsible for all aftercare.
 
Quite alright old chap.
Sorry must dash - need to take the Purdeys in for servicing, ready for the 12th, and have to fill the Aston with fuel first.

Damn, now where has the House Keeper put my keys.

"Sorry what was that Jeeves? The Pilot is saying the flight plan to Monte Carlo has been logged, excellent!"

regards,

HL

Hmmmmm.....Whilst your at it don't forget to give the gardener a damn good thrashing for having the audacity to ask for Christmas Day off, .... Enjoy your trip to Monte Carlo, nice work if you can get it - this international pet claw trimming business to the rich and famous.... Oh and Don't forget to put in a good word for Rolf for all his dedication and hard work in supporting animal welfare.... Perhaps he could join you on your new found Pet venture, you could do the trimming whilst he does the grooming!:D
 
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actually vets make their money not from their hourly rate but from the mark up on the drugs.
This I know first hand.
Often we are talking 200 - 300 % mark up on the drugs..

Rubbish. We do make some income from drugs (with have huge costs associated with them - during lambing time I can have £50,000 of drugs in stock) but nothing like 300%!

I sell lots of drugs below list price and rely on discounts to make any sort of margin.

Ex ray is done using a portable machine on the cow - the dog gets full on exray with all the latest gubbins.

Actually from my experience there is more profit in large animal than small animal vetenary.

Whilst I could x-ray a cow I never have done so (and the majority of my work is cattle). The machine we use for dogs is a portable machine that we do take out of the surgery to radiograph horses.

How can there be more profit in large animals? It's far more efficient sitting at the surgery and getting the patients brought to the vet. You're charging badly wrong if this is the case....

You should always get a price before commencement of treatment and check around.

Price is a useless way of comparing vets. Rarely will you get the best care at the lowest price. Be-very-aware of places offering cut prices to get you through the door. The margins are small so I can assure you they will make it up somewhere else.....

I can legally inject pigs cattle and sheep, but not dogs? Why?

Whilst on a recent trip abroad we took a dog to get cleaned up by a vet in Hungary. General anaesthetic was used. In the UK this would have been cause for the animal to stay in over night, with associated costs. In Hungary the animal was returned to us still unconscious and we were responsible for all aftercare.

There is no reason you cannot inject your own dog - we have many diabetic dogs in the practice who's owners inject them once or twice daily.

It would be unprofessional to discharge an unconscious animal into the owners care. Modern anaesthetics can have the dog walking about 30 minutes after surgery. I've sent (specifically) bitch caesarian home that close to waking up and they can walk out of the surgery unaided.
 
Rubbish yourself!!

YOU may not charge that mark up, however I KNOW of vets that do!

Again rubbish yourself!
YOU may use a portable xray for dogs, however the vets I am associated with uses a fixed one!
The farms I have visited with vets we quite often use a portable xray on the cows!

Again - YOU may not make more money on large animal, however down here they certainly do!!!

They are facts I KNOW because I have had history with a vetenary partner, so I have had inside knowledge of the goings on!

Remember you are just talking for yourself - you do not talk for the rest of the vets in the country!



Rubbish. We do make some income from drugs (with have huge costs associated with them - during lambing time I can have £50,000 of drugs in stock) but nothing like 300%!

I sell lots of drugs below list price and rely on discounts to make any sort of margin.



Whilst I could x-ray a cow I never have done so (and the majority of my work is cattle). The machine we use for dogs is a portable machine that we do take out of the surgery to radiograph horses.

How can there be more profit in large animals? It's far more efficient sitting at the surgery and getting the patients brought to the vet. You're charging badly wrong if this is the case....



Price is a useless way of comparing vets. Rarely will you get the best care at the lowest price. Be-very-aware of places offering cut prices to get you through the door. The margins are small so I can assure you they will make it up somewhere else.....



There is no reason you cannot inject your own dog - we have many diabetic dogs in the practice who's owners inject them once or twice daily.

It would be unprofessional to discharge an unconscious animal into the owners care. Modern anaesthetics can have the dog walking about 30 minutes after surgery. I've sent (specifically) bitch caesarian home that close to waking up and they can walk out of the surgery unaided.
 
Does anyone realise what it costs our university graduates to get through the courses. £9000 a year, and what does it take 4 years and 4 years with little money to spend while they are doing it. They deserve good wages for what they do apart from the stress it takes them to get there. When they have surgeries to pay for and vehicles and staff also the insurances. If you take all this into consideration they do not get as much as one thinks.We know there are some rip off merchants but they are in every walk of life. You should always get a price before commencement of treatment and check around.

I cant for the life of me see what justification tuition fees are for over inflated prices. All graduates have these costs which are only paid back when your earnings exceed a certain amount
(have you been talking to APACHE -- break out the violin you will have me feeling sorry for them shortly)
knowitall
 
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