Whats safest, muzzle up or down ?

[Monkey Spanker]

Oh no. Not this old chestnut...again? As I've written before militaries have spent huge amounts of time on researching this because of the wish to assess the risk of bullets falling to earth from high angle anti-aircraft defence causing casualties amongst the very troops that have just fired them.

There's documented conclusions in most of the major sources of serious small arms research from the 1920s and 1930s and not the made for TV pseudo science of the American "Mythbusters" programme.

So here's something from a RESPECTED American authority:

From"Official Report of Vertical Time of Flight for Small Arms Ammunition" (U.S. Army Ordnance Office) expain this.

"The firing platform at Miami was about ten feet square. There was a shield of thin armor plate over the heads of the men at the gun. Out of more than 500 shots fired after adjusting the gun so as to bring the shots as nearly as possible onto the platform, only 4 shots hit it, and one more fell into the boat. One of the shots that hit the platform was a Service .30-'06, 150 grain flat based bullet which came down base first and bounced into the water after striking the edge of the lower platform. It left a mark about 1/16 inch deep in the soft pine board. Two more bullets struck in a pail of water beside the machine gun.

"It was concluded from these tests that the return velocity was about 300 feet per second. With the 150 grain bullet, this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds. Previously the Army had decided that on the average, an energy of 60 foot pounds is required to produce a disabling wound.

"Calculations indicate that the 150 grain .30 caliber Service bullet fired straight up at a muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second will rise 9000 feet, taking about 18 seconds to do it; and that it takes 31 seconds to return to earth, the last few thousand feet of the fall being at a nearly constant speed of a bit over 300 feet per second.

"If this same bullet were fired in a vacuum upwards at the same velocity, it would rise to a height of 113,000 feet. It would take nearly 84 seconds to make the ascent, and exactly the same time to come back, return with the same velocity that it started with".
Source(s):

Hatcher's Notebook, by Maj. Gen. Julian S. Hatcher. Copyright 1947, The Military Service Publishing Company. Third Edition, 2nd Printing. April 1966, pp. 510-518

As far as I'm aware, most Anti Aircraft fire is slightly larger than .30 cal (and I have been on the receiving end of it!)
I would also argue that a 150 grain bullet falling at 300 fps with an energy of 30 ft/lbs could kill - especially if tumbling and striking point first. I would not like to risk the integrity of my skull on some fairly basic research of almost 100 years old where one bullet hit a plank and 2 more hit a bucket of water! Every year there are dozens of people killed from bullets falling from the sky - FACT!
MS

 

[Monkey Spanker]

Celebratory gun fire is usually multiple rounds(10's, 100's or even 1000's) fired above the heads of thousands of people out on the streets in urban areas and so not surprising people get hit on the head occasionally!!
Me thinks if I had multiple ND's into the ground while out stalking it wouldn't be long before I sustained an injury. Into the sky in rural area - vanishingly small chance of hitting somebody. But then maybe I am just selfish!!

There's also a slight chance that you may win the lottery, but it's still a chance! Let's hope that when it happens your barrel is at 90 degrees on a still day and we might be able to sort you out with a Darwin award?!
MS

 

[Monkey Spanker]

Surely the chances of having an ND while it is on your shoulder with the safety on are negligible. If you are so concerned that you might have an ND that you carry muzzle down then how dare you take the risk of a having a cartridge chambered in any case.....

Eh??!
A Negligent Discharge can happen at any time, even with a supposedly unloaded rifle which is often the case so how can the chances be negligible? Rifles should be treated as loaded at all times with regards to muzzle awareness and pointed in a safe direction - never at anybody! A rifle pointed in the air is not necessarily a safe direction.
MS

 

[mereside]

The implication of this thread is that everyone always carries their rifle - either muzzle up or muzzle down, it matters not - with a chambered round!
Surely that's a no-no? I wouldn't like to always be depending on my safety catch, and would prefer to keep my ammo under the bolt at least until the quarry had been spotted, or I was safely ensconced in a high seat or some other vantage point from where the muzzle was always directed at my chosen backstop.

However, I admit I'm yet to stalk on my own with my own rifle, and when I've been out with other folk, using their rifles, I've let myself be guided by what was their usual practice.

you don't do much stalking then, woodland or lowland stalking you load up and set off stalking as you litarally will not have time to cycle a round when you come across deer.
ask limulus just stalk ten feet down there and you will see deer i think he thought i was pulling his plonker, sure enough a nice big staggie walks off without a care in the world .
all you have to do is be aware of your muzzle at all times up down horizontal as long as you are safe then thats all that matters.
its all dictated by your ground and if in company just common sence really but it seems that that goes out the window. I have seen discharges whilst people are loading up and its scary.
always keep it away from yourself and others its that simple.atb wayne

 

[jamross65]

you don't do much stalking then, woodland or lowland stalking you load up and set off stalking as you litarally will not have time to cycle a round when you come across deer.
ask limulus just stalk ten feet down there and you will see deer i think he thought i was pulling his plonker, sure enough a nice big staggie walks off without a care in the world .
all you have to do is be aware of your muzzle at all times up down horizontal as long as you are safe then thats all that matters.
its all dictated by your ground and if in company just common sence really but it seems that that goes out the window. I have seen discharges whilst people are loading up and its scary.
always keep it away from yourself and others its that simple.atb wayne

your absolutely right Wayne. It is as simple as that. Muzzle awareness is what should be drummed into folk for half a day on whatever course their on. Treat every gun as though it's loaded and don't rely on the safety catch. By that I mean its on, but that should not make a difference in the appropriate handling and carrying of the rifle. Its scary when loading at birds how some folk are completely clueless when it comes to the safety, or perhaps risk reduction is a better description, aspects of gun handling...

muzzle up or down, as long as you are doing it safely and with complete awareness with regards to the gun, the ground, obstacles and others around you it shouldn't really matter...

 

[limulus]

you don't do much stalking then, woodland or lowland stalking you load up and set off stalking as you litarally will not have time to cycle a round when you come across deer.
ask limulus just stalk ten feet down there and you will see deer i think he thought i was pulling his plonker, sure enough a nice big staggie walks off without a care in the world .
all you have to do is be aware of your muzzle at all times up down horizontal as long as you are safe then thats all that matters.
its all dictated by your ground and if in company just common sence really but it seems that that goes out the window. I have seen discharges whilst people are loading up and its scary.
always keep it away from yourself and others its that simple.atb wayne

Now that staggy got fed up looking down the barrel of the .308.
And it was 15 feet into the ride.
Theres me looking for its antlers to be certain it was a stag and its standing there like a bleedin porn star doh

 

[Psyxologos]

Muzzle up for me, no problem with it slipping as I use a ruck sling.

Al

Same here!

 

[Taff]

neither is safe with a idiot on the end of the gun, both have advantages and disadvantages, always up for me being a short arse.

 

[Toxster]

When I can control the rifle with my hand then it's muzzle down - as in reality I'm just pointing the rifle where I want and using my shoulder to take the weight whilst I point it somewhere safe.

Muzzle up at any time I need my free hand and will be moving/swinging or when in a group and I can't find a safe place to point it down.

Each have their pros and cons. I'd suggest being adaptive to get the best from each and avoid the cons.

 

[csl]

I wouldn't say either was inherently safer than the other. What is more important is safe handling, muzzle awareness, appropriate use of safety catch, being familiar and practised with the firearm loading/unloading etc. Personally I usually default to muzzle up just because that is what I am more comfortable with, but depending on circumstances will sometimes carry muzzle down (low branches, falling debris like pine needles, walking below someone in high seat etc.)

 

[gixer1]

I use muzzle up when shouldered or someone is with me but when in the final part of the stalk I usually change to keep the muzzle down, I do not like to carry muzzle down as rounds can and will fragment riccochet so this could potentially be as dangerous.

I have had an ND with muzzle up and am thankful the muzzle was up as there were three people around, this was found to be a loose trigger mechanism on a tikka aught six but still taught me a valuable lesson on checking over the the whole rifle and taking it apart to check the non-obvious parts more often than i was.


Regards,

Gixer

 

[foxyloxy]

Muzzle down for me also. I find its just not balanced right if I have a mod & bi-pod fixed plus I think it makes getting up to the sticks easier as well.

I remember the lad who took us for the dsc1 said he preferred muzzle down as well.

 

[Oh6]

A short while ago there was a thread where the idea of chambering a round with the muzzle pointed vertical was said to be dangerous and that it should always be pointed at the (preferably soft) ground.

So it is interesting how popular carrying a rifle muzzle up is...



(Depending on where I am and whether alone, I carry both muzzle up or down, but much prefer down)

 

[PointBlank]

A short while ago there was a thread where the idea of chambering a round with the muzzle pointed vertical was said to be dangerous and that it should always be pointed at the (preferably soft) ground.

So it is interesting how popular carrying a rifle muzzle up is...



(Depending on where I am and whether alone, I carry both muzzle up or down, but much prefer down)

Just because someone is preaching on here that it is dangerous doesn't make it true! Muzzle up is perfectly fine for carrying as long as you are not pointing the muzzle at anyone.

Obviously when you are chambering a round it is pointed at the soft ground because that is when it is most likely to go off if there is a problem.

 

[gallmans]

My combo is quite heavy with scope, bipod, mod etc. I carry using both shoulders with a rucksack type arrangement. rifle is centered on back muzzle up which I feel is best option in terms of safe and secure against slipping.

 

[Tim.243]

For foxing I have muzzle down with a scope cover on if it is muddy ( like last night) if I have to get through cover or walk a long distance then the gun is across my back...
%90 of the time I have a battery pack, lamp and quad sticks.
To add one thing..when people walk with a shot gun it is pointing to the ground and in a lot of cases broken...unless they have a non UK passport then it is over the shoulder or waving around...


Tim.243

 

[Neumo]

Interesting thread, as I was always taught shotties & air guns with muzzle down, rifles with muzzle up. Interesting point about pointing the muzzle at people if you have the rig pointing muzzle up & then bend over while going over an obstacle etc..

 

[User00047]

I'm firmly in the "muzzle down" camp. I have had this discussion with people many times and some of the muzzle up people say " well, if the rifle went off the bullet would go up into the sky and lose energy and not hurt anyone, whereas if it's pointing down it could shoot you in the legs.............."
Well that's all fine but............ too many times have I found myself staring down the barrel of a rifle when out stalking with companions. I've even been clouted about the head a few times with a moderator by one careless sportsman .........it is a bit of a worry. In theory the rifle points directly up into the sky but in practice it points roughly towards my head,
I'd rather take the chance of being shot in the leg, than risk being shot in the face!

 

[SA shooter]

unless they have a non UK passport then it is over the shoulder or waving around…

Whats that all about???

 

[Tim.243]

unless they have a non UK passport then it is over the shoulder or waving around…

Whats that all about???

you and your Hatsan lol

TEH