Whats what with Scotland/ non toxic

[Anser anser]

I was meant to be up Edinburgh rifles a few days back to drop the .243 in. Family obligations have delayed this. Im hoping to get a good load worked out by their lads in non toxic and the recipe passed on after some range testing so i can replicate their findings reloading ,in the future , here at home . Whats the latest on changes in the law regarding bullet weight/ non toxic and can anyone advise if estates are now pushing non toxic as preferred material for clients /culls etc.Im being lazy here .google searches at work on a phone are a pain in the ass with the wee screen.

 

[JockStalk]

Changed to 80gr up here so perfect for your 243.
FC non toxic but factory only. Estates vary. Game dealers I use don’t care yet.

 

[Utectok]

Scottish woodland non toxic only. Yew tree bullets would be my recommendation they do an 80gn one now large deer legal

 

[Brighty3006]

Also had great results with Peregrine in my 243

 

[sgurrdamh]

Just to point out I don't believe the change is signed / confirmed yet... so it would still be illegal to shoot a red deer with an 80g bullet (or an NV scope regardless of license) as it stands at the moment. I believe it's the 30th Nov that's it due but i'm sure someone else will know for sure.

 

[User00040]

Just to point out I don't believe the change is signed / confirmed yet... so it would still be illegal to shoot a red deer with an 80g bullet (or an NV scope regardless of license) as it stands at the moment. I believe it's the 30th Nov that's it due but i'm sure someone else will know for sure.

Not correct, NV and thermal rifle scopes were being used on deer last night (although FLS have yet to 'allow' it on their ground, despite it being legal...)

 

[User00040]

I was meant to be up Edinburgh rifles a few days back to drop the .243 in. Family obligations have delayed this. Im hoping to get a good load worked out by their lads in non toxic and the recipe passed on after some range testing so i can replicate their findings reloading ,in the future , here at home . Whats the latest on changes in the law regarding bullet weight/ non toxic and can anyone advise if estates are now pushing non toxic as preferred material for clients /culls etc.Im being lazy here .google searches at work on a phone are a pain in the ass with the wee screen.

Please keep in mind, that despite the weight drop to 80 grains, the minimum muzzle energy for large deer is still relatively high.



Someone has kocked up here, as to get an 80 grain bullet to surpass the minimum muzzle energy, you'll need the bullets to be going along at a fair clip.

Shame this was not looked over properly, as testing was done by Precision Rifle Services to highlight the issue: https://www.nature.scot/doc/natures...bullet-weight-lawful-culling-all-deer-species

(Note, the rifle used in testing had a 21 and 3/4" barrel)

A longer barrel (24"+) may help, but I'd be surprised if many/any shops are going to remind people that some factory ammo will fail to reach this requirement with the average barrel being around 20" or so.

Your best best is still going with a heavier (90-100 grain bullet), which will probably require a faster than average twist rate, especially if copper is going to be used.

Some figures:

Hornady 243 80grain CX (copper bullet), factory loaded as 'Outfitter':



80 grain bullet will need to be around the 3,150 fps muzzle velocity mark to make the minimum muzzle energy:



100 grain bullet will still need to be doing 2,800 fps+ to be legal:



Something to keep in mind...

 

[Lancaster]

Please keep in mind, that despite the weight drop to 80 grains, the minimum muzzle energy for large deer is still relatively high.

View attachment 335725

Someone has kocked up here, as to get an 80 grain bullet to surpass the minimum muzzle energy, you'll need the bullets to be going along at a fair clip.

Shame this was not looked over properly, as testing was done by Precision Rifle Services to highlight the issue: https://www.nature.scot/doc/natures...bullet-weight-lawful-culling-all-deer-species

(Note, the rifle used in testing had a 21 and 3/4" barrel)

A longer barrel (24"+) may help, but I'd be surprised if many/any shops are going to remind people that some factory ammo will fail to reach this requirement with the average barrel being around 20" or so.

Your best best is still going with a heavier (90-100 grain bullet), which will probably require a faster than average twist rate, especially if copper is going to be used.

Some figures:

Hornady 243 80grain CX (copper bullet), factory loaded as 'Outfitter':

View attachment 335728

80 grain bullet will need to be around the 3,150 fps muzzle velocity mark to make the minimum muzzle energy:

View attachment 335729

100 grain bullet will still need to be doing 2,800 fps+ to be legal:

View attachment 335730

Something to keep in mind...

Sorry CS, for once I have to disagree.
Anyone who is making homebrew loads for .243 can, in most cases, get a 80gr copper bullet to travel at over 3200fps without pushing pressures to an extreme unless they are using the old Barnes X type bullet that didn't have barrel rider type bands or relief cut shanks.
I've seen a fair few factory lead loads, including 100gr, that have been marginal at best in regards to the 1750ft/lb minimum, and I don't think any gun shop will ever have pointed this out.

 

[User00040]

Sorry CS, for once I have to disagree.
Anyone who is making homebrew loads for .243 can, in most cases, get a 80gr copper bullet to travel at over 3200fps without pushing pressures to an extreme unless they are using the old Barnes X type bullet that didn't have barrel rider type bands or relief cut shanks.

Out of an 18-20" barrel?

Pressure estimates from QuikLoad or handloads sent to proof house or just 'this seems fine'?

 

[new forest]

I'm running the 80gr Yew Tree in a 6x47 Lapua at 3400fps out of a 18" barrel.

 

[Lancaster]

Out of an 18-20" barrel?

Pressure estimates from QuikLoad or handloads sent to proof house or just 'this seems fine'?

3 different .243 rifles including one of my own, 18" to 24" barrels, chrono'd and no evidence of pressure signs, probably 100+ rounds in total working up loads, would need to check on the spreadsheet for total rounds fired and chrono figures.
If anything there seem to be less pressure signs for Copper than Lead.
Ask Ed, he has done shed loads of work on Copper ammunition.

 

[User00040]

I'm running the 80gr Yew Tree in a 6x47 Lapua at 3400fps out of a 18" barrel.

What powder?

 

[Island]

Just to point out I don't believe the change is signed / confirmed yet... so it would still be illegal to shoot a red deer with an 80g bullet (or an NV scope regardless of license) as it stands at the moment. I believe it's the 30th Nov that's it due but i'm sure someone else will know for sure.

The Deer (Firearms etc.) (Scotland) Amendment Order 2023 came into effect on the 3rd November 2023.

The Scottish Statutory Instrument (2023 No. 332) was signed (i.e. "made") by Lorna Slater on the 2nd November and legally came into effect on the day after the day on which it was made.

The Deer (Firearms etc.) (Scotland) Amendment Order 2023

 

[Anser anser]

Please keep in mind, that despite the weight drop to 80 grains, the minimum muzzle energy for large deer is still relatively high.

View attachment 335725

Someone has kocked up here, as to get an 80 grain bullet to surpass the minimum muzzle energy, you'll need the bullets to be going along at a fair clip.

Shame this was not looked over properly, as testing was done by Precision Rifle Services to highlight the issue: https://www.nature.scot/doc/natures...bullet-weight-lawful-culling-all-deer-species

(Note, the rifle used in testing had a 21 and 3/4" barrel)

A longer barrel (24"+) may help, but I'd be surprised if many/any shops are going to remind people that some factory ammo will fail to reach this requirement with the average barrel being around 20" or so.

Your best best is still going with a heavier (90-100 grain bullet), which will probably require a faster than average twist rate, especially if copper is going to be used.

Some figures:

Hornady 243 80grain CX (copper bullet), factory loaded as 'Outfitter':

View attachment 335728

80 grain bullet will need to be around the 3,150 fps muzzle velocity mark to make the minimum muzzle energy:

View attachment 335729

100 grain bullet will still need to be doing 2,800 fps+ to be legal:

View attachment 335730

Something to keep in mind...

Hence the trip up to drop the rifle off with Ed and let him do what he does well. Im assuming he will not only find a non toxic bullet best suited to the rifle but confirm its ballistics also as part of the service. Thus im confident that my money will be well spent on being provided with the most suitable round and all the relevant data for reloading some of my own as and when .Im hoping to get up there tomorrow.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Please keep in mind, that despite the weight drop to 80 grains, the minimum muzzle energy for large deer is still relatively high.

View attachment 335725

Someone has kocked up here, as to get an 80 grain bullet to surpass the minimum muzzle energy, you'll need the bullets to be going along at a fair clip.

Shame this was not looked over properly, as testing was done by Precision Rifle Services to highlight the issue: https://www.nature.scot/doc/natures...bullet-weight-lawful-culling-all-deer-species

(Note, the rifle used in testing had a 21 and 3/4" barrel)

A longer barrel (24"+) may help, but I'd be surprised if many/any shops are going to remind people that some factory ammo will fail to reach this requirement with the average barrel being around 20" or so.

Your best best is still going with a heavier (90-100 grain bullet), which will probably require a faster than average twist rate, especially if copper is going to be used.

Some figures:

Hornady 243 80grain CX (copper bullet), factory loaded as 'Outfitter':

View attachment 335728

80 grain bullet will need to be around the 3,150 fps muzzle velocity mark to make the minimum muzzle energy:

View attachment 335729

100 grain bullet will still need to be doing 2,800 fps+ to be legal:

View attachment 335730

Something to keep in mind...

If you cant make deer legal velocity from an 80gr bullet you sure as **** aren’t doing it in the same barrel with a 100gr bullet!!

40% of the 100gr factory loads I tested in a Tikka 243 with a 20” barrel failed to make 1750ftlbs

80gr loads in a 20” barrel should be well over 3200

70-90gr .243 loads on the whole produce more Energy 0-250 than a 100gr load in the same barrel
Especially short barrels