House doors to be locked continuously even when you're at home?

The best weapon in these situations is your camera. No would-be burglar will hang about once a camera starts flashing. I remember my mother foiling a break in attempt that way. Sent a whole gang of lads packing. Tough cookie, my mum!
 
nun_hunter said:
Not advice I would advocate or recommend at all due to the fact that what you are proposing would leave the home owner in no end of bother.

Section 5(1)(b) any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid gas or other thing. The fact that you are (or at least were) encouraging people to make a home made prohibited weapon is ludacris of someone who says they used to be a police officer. There were a spate of incidents in London where gangs were using Jiff lemon bottles full of amonia as weapons and subsequently found themselves charged with possession of Sec 5 weapons before you say there is nothing wrong with storing amonia in washing up bottles for ease of use etc .
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https://www.lccsa.org.uk/r-v-formosa-r-v-upton-1990/

Weapon adapted to discharge matter -meaning of "adapted" : Fairy liquid bottle filled with acid not a prohibited weaponCA (Crim Div) (Lloyd LJ, McCullough J, Phillips J)
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I have the text of the full judgement but it's very long so I'll not post it here for fear of upsetting anyone. If you would like it PM me and I'll send it to you. It's quite interesting for anyone who wants to know what the law is rather than what they think it ought to be.

As far as the Jif lemon items are concerned I would like to see the case on conviction. I would feel sure that the offence for which the people were convicted would be possession of an offensive weapon, which would be correct. The case may have pre-dated the one above, i.e. before 1990. Also, it may have not reached a court that could set precedent.

Here's an extract. BTW, the acid was intended to be used to damage shop windows that were displaying fur coats.

The appellants were arrested in possession of a washing-up liquid bottle filled with 400 ml of hydrochloric acid. They were charged with and convicted of possessing a prohibited weapon, contrary to s 5(1)(b)a of the Firearms Act 1968. They appealed against their conviction on the ground that the washing-up liquid bottle had not been 'designed or adapted' for the discharge of a noxious liquid and therefore was not a prohibited weapon within s 5 of the 1968 Act. The Crown contended that the term 'designed' meant 'intended' and that the washing-up liquid bottle had been intended to be used by the appellants to discharge the acid and had been 'adapted' for that purpose when it was filled with the acid.
a Section 5(1) is set out at p 132 c d, post
Held – The term 'adapted' in s 5 of the 1968 Act took its colour and meaning from the context in which it was used, and in conjunction with the term 'designed' it imported some physical alteration to the object in question to make it fit for the use in question. Since the washing-up liquid bottle had not been altered when it was filled with the acid it had not been 'designed or adapted' for the discharge of a noxious liquid within s 5 of the 1968 Act and was not a prohibited weapon. The appeal would accordingly be allowed.
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The mind boggles that a washing-up liquid bottle was ever considered a 'firearm' - that was surely trying to push the definition of an S5 prohibited weapon under the Firearms Acts rather far! Anyway, washing-up detergent in the eyes is pretty nasty, and there are many other even more unpleasant and damaging cleaning sprays, limescale solvents etc, etc on sale in my local Tesco. Maybe 20 million housewives should be charged for having unlicensed offensive, prohibited weapons in their kitchens. (Come to think of it, my other half's hairspray has unpleasant effects on me even when it's not sprayed into my eyes - maybe I can get her 'done' for it.)

This takes us back to the idea that one's house has to be like Fort Knox even when in residence ............... Just a thought too on that, what about when you have visitors? Maybe the police frown on that too unless you've know them for years or had them vetted in advance.
 
It's all gone a bit Charles bronson this one....

three kids and Lego lying around everywhere is a most effective deterrent to anyone coming round...
 
Serious subject and concern for those living with the problem but this thread is reminding me of the Harry Enfield sketches with the two guy in the pub.......:doh:
 
flying felix said:
You are correct in that it comes down to a balance of probability, and I've witnessed it first hand, so know exactly how it is presented, I was able to get hold of the whole case file submitted by the police to support their claim to the appeal and it's no small decision, but there are a number mistakes made (and I mean real mistakes as opposed to the guilty getting away with a technicality) for a start the FAC holder did not allow anything, to allow means to knowingly grant. This is only reasonable if there has been evidence that a criminal will or is likely to gain entry.

Using the car analogy I used earlier, it would change if it was known to the stalker that this particular rest area had been subjected to car thefts repeatedly in the past.

At the moment what is reasonable is perceived to what is the threat, or the likelihood of the threat. If you don't expect to come home from work every night to find your house has been broken into then it is reasonable not to protect against it. If the risk of burglary is high then it is reasonable to protect against it.

The level of risk is both subjective and objective and although I hate Risk Assessments with a vengeance, one has to be conducted on your individual security and you need to adopt the relevant precautions. Some will need to lock their front doors whilst at home, others will want to and some will have no requirement to. But to say all should is a step too far IMHO.

Don't forget what is and what is not reasonable is covered in the HO guidelines for storage and transportation of firearms.
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Good reply,

I feel many FAC holders are far to lapidasical when it comes to the security of there firearms. A lot have the attitude of 'well its always been alright' or 'I live in a safe area' We have been granted an awesome responsibility and one that is often take lightly. One has to expect that one's lives change when one keeps firearms at home. If not you are putting yourself and others at risk.
 
bewsher500 said:
It's all gone a bit Charles bronson this one....

three kids and Lego lying around everywhere is a most effective deterrent to anyone coming round...
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Both points are properly made. Who here, especially those with a family, have planned an evacuation procedure in case of a house fire? I think it utterly rational and sensible to make such a plan for all your family to know. The chances of your house catching fire in a manner that prevents you leaving by conventional exits is statistically tiny, the potential consequences are too horrible to contemplate. Is considering a plan to deal with potential home invaders, in reality an equally tiny chance, so paranoid?
 
mrhim said:
Good reply,

I feel many FAC holders are far to lapidasical when it comes to the security of there firearms. A lot have the attitude of 'well its always been alright' or 'I live in a safe area' We have been granted an awesome responsibility and one that is often take lightly. One has to expect that one's lives change when one keeps firearms at home. If not you are putting yourself and others at risk.
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What utter rubbish.

My experience is obviously the direct opposite to yours. In over 50 years of firearm ownership and living in an area of high firearms ownership, I can honestly say I have never come across anyone who's firearms security or sense of responsibility I would question. Neither do I accept that I or others have been granted an "awesome responsibility", we may have a responsibility to ensure our guns don't fall into the wrong hands and to shoot safely but that's it, I would hardly describe it as awesome, life changing or putting others at risk.

Edit: My apologies for the first sentence, it was uncalled for and written in haste.
 
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Interesting debate so far but a reality-check is required.

Keeping the doors locked and windows closed is an unrealistic expectation unless you live on your own and are slightly paranoid. It certainly won't work in a family setting. And today, with temperatures reaching 27C? HaHa.

And what about all those rifle owners who enjoy their sport and hobby and end the afternoon or evening with a pint in a Pub before going home, leaving the rifle(s) in the car. (OK, Hopefully with the amo/bolt on their person...)
Not to mention the amount of alcohol that I have seen consumed before, and during shoots and hunts.
 
flying felix said:
I've always been of the opinion that the law should be changed to as soon as you knowingly break the law, you consent to giving up the vast majority of your rights until after the act. So a thief can't claim for cutting his hand whilst breaking into your house, or having his nuts chewed off by a well trained.....sorry....badly trained dog.
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Not being a legalbeagle, please tell then, how come it has been reported in the past of said burglar claiming for falling through a flimsy roof that was not signed as "fragile"?
Or has my memory failed again?
 
old man said:
Not being a legalbeagle, please tell then, how come it has been reported in the past of said burglar claiming for falling through a flimsy roof that was not signed as "fragile"?
Or has my memory failed again?
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????????

I think you have not read my post correctly.
 
CharlieT said:
What utter rubbish.

My experience is obviously the direct opposite to yours. In over 50 years of firearm ownership and living in an area of high firearms ownership, I can honestly say I have never come across anyone who's firearms security or sense of responsibility I would question. Neither do I accept that I or others have been granted an "awesome responsibility", we may have a responsibility to ensure our guns don't fall into the wrong hands and to shoot safely but that's it, I would hardly describe it as awesome, life changing or putting others at risk.

Edit: My apologies for the first sentence, it was uncalled for and written in haste.
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+1 My sentiments also. :thumb:


This below is utter rubbish. Maybe you are looking too closely at your own insecurities.....


Originally Posted by mrhim
Good reply,


I feel many FAC holders are far to lapidasical when it comes to the security of there firearms. A lot have the attitude of 'well its always been alright' or 'I live in a safe area' We have been granted an awesome responsibility and one that is often take lightly. One has to expect that one's lives change when one keeps firearms at home. If not you are putting yourself and others at risk.
 
I think common sense is in order here, not just for the FA owners but for everyone.

None of us are going to sit indoors with all the doors and windows shut in hot weather, especially as today they are forecasting 30+.

But if you are out in the back garden enjoying a cold beer with the wife and friends I would make sure the front door is secured. Not just for the sake of the firearms which should be under lock and key anyway, which should make it impossible for anyone to steal them. But also from the point of view that whilst people are busy in the back garden anyone could walk into the house and steal without your noticing.

Living in a seaside village we get very little trouble here, and the few houses around us are mostly good neighbours. But it pays to make sure your home is safe, but not to the point where it makes life unbearable. I think maybe the Firearms officers comment may have been taken out of context? Maybe, maybe not, but there is a point to his comment that should be kept in mind.
 
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