Those reporting days at variance from the stated figures will I think recognise their experience in the next survey. BASC have not disclosed the date ranges of the current survey, presumably averaged for 2016?
BASC Survey on FAC and SGC processing by various Police forces in England and Wales
- Thread starter Heym SR20
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I am rather disappointed this has taken so long. I, along with others recommended this survey a long time ago. Its a simple task and basically admin.
I would also like to see no of s7 permits issued in the year, firearms queries dealt with, certificates revoked, staff numbers in the unit - that's just 'on the hoof' thinking. Greymasters idea of an overall competence assessment would be v helpful along with the traffic light cell colours.
Some praise BASC for doing this (at last) but tell me, how else can a shooting organisation advise on the most critical renewal/grant issue without doing this work ?
Or do they individually query each members concerns with no prior briefing on the likely cause? Sorry, not impressed - yet. Seems to be the way with BASC
It takes a knowledgeable person to frame these questions as FOI requests and someone familiar with Excel to collate - it is a simple process not exactly rocket science.
Maybe its a question of management not focusing on member priorities because they are busy at tribunals, on one side or the other?
I would also like to see no of s7 permits issued in the year, firearms queries dealt with, certificates revoked, staff numbers in the unit - that's just 'on the hoof' thinking. Greymasters idea of an overall competence assessment would be v helpful along with the traffic light cell colours.
Some praise BASC for doing this (at last) but tell me, how else can a shooting organisation advise on the most critical renewal/grant issue without doing this work ?
Or do they individually query each members concerns with no prior briefing on the likely cause? Sorry, not impressed - yet. Seems to be the way with BASC
It takes a knowledgeable person to frame these questions as FOI requests and someone familiar with Excel to collate - it is a simple process not exactly rocket science.
Maybe its a question of management not focusing on member priorities because they are busy at tribunals, on one side or the other?
Bandit Country
Well-Known Member
According to their website it's eight months for renewal, so you'll get yours sometime in October!
In recognition of the frustration felt by Kes at how long it has taken the BASC to compile this information, I too would echo the opinion that this type of evidence gathering should fall naturally to the BASC, in the absence of HMIC, which, if memory serves only compiled data from a sample survey. It is long overdue. It should not be allowed to become ad hoc.
Given that a significant increase is fees was asked for and granted in recent years, this evidence would have been crucial in exposing the truly incompetent forces who were shouting loudest for shooters to subsidise their inefficiency.
It is scandalous that the former Hampshire CC Andy Marsh (now Avon), as former ACPO lead on Firearms Licensing, should now be exposed as (now ex) leader of one of the worst performing forces in England and Wales. I think it is a fair measure of his ineffectuality in that role, that so many forces were allowed to fail so badly. HMIC concluded that the level of inefficiency in licensing was posing a danger to the public.
On renewing my FAC I entered into extensive discussions with the PCC of Hampshire and he declared to me he had tasked the incoming CC with improvements in this area. I had mulled over putting in my own FOI requests, asking also for information on S7 data. As Kes states, S7 data is crucial to a better understanding of the process.
I am pleased that the BASC has now mobilised on this front. Evidenced based decision making is often stated as a necessary requirement in regulatory matters, and as has proved vital in the lead ammunition debate, is crucial in holding authorities to account. This survey should be conducted every year, and would be a good use to expend members money on. I would expect the CCs of the best and worst to provide an account of their performance. and the Firearms lead at the NPCC to be quizzed also. These statements to be made public.
Given that a significant increase is fees was asked for and granted in recent years, this evidence would have been crucial in exposing the truly incompetent forces who were shouting loudest for shooters to subsidise their inefficiency.
It is scandalous that the former Hampshire CC Andy Marsh (now Avon), as former ACPO lead on Firearms Licensing, should now be exposed as (now ex) leader of one of the worst performing forces in England and Wales. I think it is a fair measure of his ineffectuality in that role, that so many forces were allowed to fail so badly. HMIC concluded that the level of inefficiency in licensing was posing a danger to the public.
On renewing my FAC I entered into extensive discussions with the PCC of Hampshire and he declared to me he had tasked the incoming CC with improvements in this area. I had mulled over putting in my own FOI requests, asking also for information on S7 data. As Kes states, S7 data is crucial to a better understanding of the process.
I am pleased that the BASC has now mobilised on this front. Evidenced based decision making is often stated as a necessary requirement in regulatory matters, and as has proved vital in the lead ammunition debate, is crucial in holding authorities to account. This survey should be conducted every year, and would be a good use to expend members money on. I would expect the CCs of the best and worst to provide an account of their performance. and the Firearms lead at the NPCC to be quizzed also. These statements to be made public.
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Absolutely pointless sarcasm and comment.
I take it you accept less than the best in other things too. No need to reply.
BASC members will have received their latest mag by now and this report is carries in there in more detail, specifically what we are doing with the data. We are using this data to work with ACC David Orford (national lead on firearms) and Police Crime Commissioners to bring about improvements to licencing
jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
I'm in West Yorkshire and have applied for a variation a 12 days ago.
I phoned to inquire about a couple of issues regarding it and was told 8 weeks lead time so not to send either my fee or ticket with the application and that I would be contacted when they needed them.
I can't ask for fairer than that,
I phoned to inquire about a couple of issues regarding it and was told 8 weeks lead time so not to send either my fee or ticket with the application and that I would be contacted when they needed them.
I can't ask for fairer than that,
The above quote is from March 2017.
Today I opened my March edition of Shooting & Conservation. Did I find an updated survey for 2017? I would surmise it did not appear because it has not been produced for 2017. BASC state in the quote that they used the 2016 data, published in 2017, to work with the NPCC lead on Firearms and PCCs to produce improvements. Could we have an evidence based critique of how the past 12 months of this joint working has improved the situation in the police forces in the surveyed.
BASC, please do tell us that you have compiled evidence from a like for like survey in relation to 2017 in order to measure the improvements your joint working with NPCC lead and PCCs.
I won't hold my breath though because experience reveals to us that BASC take a promising initiative, such as the medical report on grants and renewals, only for feet to be taken off the gas and the culpable are allowed off the hook. I strongly suspect that no survey was done for 2017 on the same basis, BASC have capitulated to wordy reassurances, and now lack the evidence to expose continuing delays. Was it because they thought an 8 week extension was going to solve the problem with S7 permits and delays.
More alarming ineptitude from the voice of shooting, (I hesitated to say shocking because I would need to be surprised to find it shocking, but surprised is the last thing I am).
paul k
Well-Known Member
The survey completely makes the case for the firearms licencing function to be handled centrally by a properly resourced (and this might be the issue) authority thereby applying just one interpretation of the current law.
With modern technology we only really need a credit card sized FAC/SGC with all the information on a magnetic strip, barcode or QR code. I also believe we should have more "general" slots, e.g. ".22 centre fire" which would encompass .222, .223, .22-250, etc., giving the ability to sell a rifle and buy another of similar but not exactly the same calibre without needing a costly variation. This would also allow firearms dealers to swipe the card to record sales of firearms, automatically freeing up the slot and record sales of firearms into vacant slots as well as ammunition.
With modern technology we only really need a credit card sized FAC/SGC with all the information on a magnetic strip, barcode or QR code. I also believe we should have more "general" slots, e.g. ".22 centre fire" which would encompass .222, .223, .22-250, etc., giving the ability to sell a rifle and buy another of similar but not exactly the same calibre without needing a costly variation. This would also allow firearms dealers to swipe the card to record sales of firearms, automatically freeing up the slot and record sales of firearms into vacant slots as well as ammunition.
Absolutely Paul however that would mean the police, very reluctantly giving up control, they dont want to do that.
Ian
I think the original survey was undertaken as variable and occasionally appalling turn around times were being reported - also wasnt Durham being stupid in the aftermath of the IPCC drubbing of their licensing function overall. I really cannot see why you would not undertake a comparative assessment for 2017/2018 and year on year thereafter, as mentioned.
Surely any shooting membership would regard this as a key service indicator?
Anyone know what happened to the 10 year licence and proposals for the next fee increase/ e-commerce delivery from all forces, or isnt that being monitored either.
Given Greymaster's turnaround of the 2016 stats, it would take the lowliest staff member to fill in a spreadsheet with the returns under FOI and there you have it. How about it CA, why dont you take over?
Surely any shooting membership would regard this as a key service indicator?
Anyone know what happened to the 10 year licence and proposals for the next fee increase/ e-commerce delivery from all forces, or isnt that being monitored either.
Given Greymaster's turnaround of the 2016 stats, it would take the lowliest staff member to fill in a spreadsheet with the returns under FOI and there you have it. How about it CA, why dont you take over?
AN DU RU FOX
Well-Known Member
WHAT I CAN,T GET MY HEAD AROUND IS DURING MY DELAYS LAST YEAR MY SECT 7 TOOK A COUPLE OF DAY,S TO APPEAR,BUT YET MY CERT TOOK NINE MONTHS AND YET THEY BOTH CONTAIN ALL THE SAME DETAILS ON! AND ITS EVEN THE SAME PAPER.Excuse caps lock on.
Having moved to Herts from Scotland back in January, Police Scotland sent my file to the wrong constabulary (Met vs BedsHerts). I spoke to the Met, who sent my file on, and to Herts to chase it up. I had an email from Herts on 30 Apr to tell me that an FEO would be in touch shortly but so far nothing heard. It’s now been 5 months and counting for a change of address and new certificate issue from Herts.
The survey says Cheshire turnaround for a variation is 10 days I have one in at the moment when I asked how long will it take the answer was 28 days that makes a mockery of the survey.
Keith
Keith
I think the multi force model is no longer fit for purpose. Whilst BASC are able to deal with the national forum, individual CCs and now Commissioners will still do whatever they want. With a squeeze in budgets no commissioner, being a political post (big mistake in my opinion ) will put money for extra staff into licensing over having an extra PC. My wife used to work in firearms licensing and would be the first to tell you, she and her colleagues knew nothing about, nor were interested in firearms! I think both licence holder and the public would be better served with a national body dealing with licensing as for police forces it is simply an unwanted use of resources right now, so is the least of ther interest. I will say however, that my own experiences have been very good.
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mickyfinn
Well-Known Member
My last variation with cheshire which wasn't so long ago Keith only took 8 days
Disappointed that, once again, Scottish data has not been represented
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