That old thread 'is a .243 enough?'

[takbok]

Funnily enough, a young lad was out on one of my permissions only this morning with a more experienced guide. He only has a 243 and shot a red spiker through the chest at 40 ish metres. It ran like they often do with no outshot and no blood trail. They had one hell of a job finding it in the woods and were close to calling in the dog man before they found it stone dead. They also had fun dragging it out. That why it's recommended that a bigger calibre shooting heavier projectiles is used. You will be almost certain to get an outshot and blood trail even if they run. Up to you guys but why make things hard for yourself?

A decent bullet out of the .243 would have exited, just like any other deer calibre. The deer would just have likely run with a lung shot from a big calibre.

I'm happy with the performance of my 6x45 on deer at short ranges so far, so the .243 is more than enough for average UK ranges with the right bullets IMO.

The only downside to using a .243 in Scotland is being limited to 100gr+ bullets which aren't ideal for the .243.

 

[Muir]

I just assume that if you need to ask if it's enough gun, it probably isn't.~Muir

 

[243 fallow]

So are you saying that anything shot with a calibre larger than a 243 will always fall straight over?
ive seen deer run when shot with 300 Rum, maybe no one thought to tell the deer what calibre it was shot with ?

I used a 243 for years, 100grn federal powershok out to 200yrds always exited the animal with some fairly brutal damage on the way out, some people who are using 58grn vmax at 4000fps probably won't get an exit wound if their chest shooting them.

 

[bogtrotter]

As a pro stalker I will probably have shot as many if not more than the majority of people on here ,as a pro I have had the use of many different calibers , but my default caliber is .243 never felt under gunned with it .

Used on Highland Reds both stags and hinds, perfectly capable of dealing with them with out issue also used on roe

The majority of reds I have shot have been on the open hill and those ,that I have shot in forests have still been Highland reds that have managed to gain access to the forest not the big beasts you get in the south,

Have not done much with Sika which are supposed to be tough ,a few hybrids which I never found to be any harder than a red to stop ,but there again I have not shot enough of them to form an opinion and will go along with the opinion of those that shoot them on a regular basis.
Don't shoot Boar , none near me no interest in them so unlikely that the need will ever arise.

Now I am quite prepared to! defer to those who say you need a heavier caliber for Boar, big southern Reds and even Sika
but I am not going to be shooting these.
What I do know is that .243 is more than adequate for the stalking I was doing.

Its simple really pick what does the job for you., one caliber may not fit every situation.

Final thought if .243 is not up to the job why was it first choice of so many professional Highland stalkers, would they really have chosen a caliber that was going to put them at a disadvantage.

 

[243 fallow]

Nicely put bogtrotter

 

[User00033]

I just assume that if you need to ask if it's enough gun, it probably isn't.~Muir

An interesting comment Muir.

Maybe it’s more an issue of psychology rather than physics. Confidence is everything, after all.

In terms of the physics, I was updating my Quickload files last night after several reloading sessions in prep for next year. I had some components I picked up a while ago as a job lot, so I developed a new load for the .243 Win using RL-19 and the 95gr Hornady SST, which immediately gave me 0.7MOA at 100yds, so a little bit of tweaking and I ended up at book max and an easy 0.5MOA. I also went in search of a higher accuracy node for the ProHunter load after some advice from members here, so now I have two new loads to compare against my normal mild load, in terms of terminal performance on deer. On large-ish goats, this new ProHunter load knocks them for six and exits with a 2” hole.

When I looked at this new ProHunter load compared to my other ones in .243 Win, I had a thought… what about Muir’s recent CZ 6.5 Grendel acquisition? I quite liked the look of that. I remember you saying that you thought the cartridge is a real gem for deer hunting, so I suggested to my mate yesterday that he look into it, as he’s in for a nice light recoiling deer rifle for next autumn.

Here’s how things compared – this is using chronographed numbers for my .243 Win vs. the published Hornady data for the 6.5 Grendel Black ammunition.

Howa 20” barrel .243 Win

46.3gr AR2209, Hornady V-Max 75gr*, MV 3189fps, 1,392ft-lb @ 100yds
44.0gr RL-19, Hornady SST 95gr, MV 2,985fps, 1,561ft-lb @ 100yds
40.0gr AR2209, Sierra ProHunter 100gr, MV 2,766fps, 1,404ft-lb @ 100yds
43.0gr AR2209, Sierra ProHunter 100gr, MV 2,942fps, 1,601ft-lb @ 100yds

* I don’t use this one for deer, it’s a goat load.

CZ 527 American 24" barrel 6.5 Grendel

? Powder, Hornady ELD-M 123gr, MV 2,580fps, 1,586ft-lb @ 100yds

My mild ProHunter load rarely exits on large red hinds, but fragments extensively leaving a ±50% weight base and petals against the opposing hide having destroyed the lungs. I will be curious to see what the SSTs do, as past experience suggests they will be more violent. I also assume (???) that hand loading could probably extract a bit more out of the 123gr ELD-M? I’ve no idea how the Black is loaded.

This is just a desktop study, field experience will determine the real facts for the new loads in .243 Win. But I’m pretty confident they will slay the red hinds just as effectively as the more mild load I’ve been using. I suppose, if you have to ask the question, is it enough gun, then maybe confidence is the underlying issue. The modelled physics suggests there are likely a few cartridges in the 6mm, .257, 6.5mm range that are in probably quite close to each other, in terms of energy at the point of impact, within normal hunting ranges. Ultimately, the shooter’s ability to put the right kind of projectile in the right place is what will make the difference.

 

[stubear]

Its all personal preference TBH.

Dont forget the army go equipped to war with .223 caliber rifles which absolutely will kill a human sized target, and they're around the 1,300ft/lb mark and not using expanding ammo.

A .243 is around 2,000ft/lb at the muzzle AND we're using expanding ammo. So thats like being shot with an SA80 and then following up with a hit from a .357 magnum. Enough to kill a deer? Yes I would think so.

Now theres no denying that a larger more powerful round can (not will necessarily) put a beast down more decisively or is more appropriate for larger/tougher animals but the call on that is down to you, what your FEO will let you have and how much meat damage you may or may not be prepared to accept.

I saw a picture over the weekend of a roe buck shot at 50y with a 200gr ELD-X out of a .300WM and it just about blew the poor thing in half, the meat damage was horrendous! Now yes, that was more down to bullet choice than the caliber (using a bullet meant for bigger animals at long range close up on a small target) and I know theres no maximum caliber for deer, but tell that to your butcher!! I cant imagine the shooter got much off the front end of that buck.

If you personally prefer or feel more confident with a bit more wallop in the tank then get a .308 or .270 or .25-06 or whatever else you want to get, are legally permitted to have and provides acceptable meat damage. IME light and fast bullets tend to do more damage than heavier slower ones.

I wanted a cartridge I could comfortably use for all of the 6 species of deer plus boar and any other species in Europe plus for target shooting and I'd like good ammo availability and reasonable carcass retention too please - For me thats .308.

Half my debate now about another rifle now is what caliber to go for because .308 is just such an excellent performer, so versatile and nice to shoot. Apart from larger plains/dangerous game and the real small species like rabbits I cant think of a single hunting application the .308 doesnt cover.

 

[Dickie]

Right bullet from a .243 put in the right place will do for all UK deer some might run further than others some might drop on the spot. If you dont have the confidence in the calibre or bullet it wont matter what you are using for the job.
I remember trying federal 100grn years ago and they made a big exit on Roe and RWS not such a big exit but both killed them and there is no deader than dead

 

[1894]

Love my 243, love my 6mm rem even more. Is there a better roe calibre - I don't thinks so. Have I shot reds and fallow with them - yes. Did they work well - yes, did I pass on less than perfect shots - yes. Would I take them over my 30-06 for Reds or Fallow miles from home - no

 

[cervus]

Someone posted a while ago "It is not the calibre but the calibre of the shooter"....lot of truth in that,...

 

[Roro]

Its all personal preference TBH.

Dont forget the army go equipped to war with .223 caliber rifles which absolutely will kill a human sized target, and they're around the 1,300ft/lb mark and not using expanding ammo.

A .243 is around 2,000ft/lb at the muzzle AND we're using expanding ammo. So thats like being shot with an SA80 and then following up with a hit from a .357 magnum. Enough to kill a deer? Yes I would think so.

No i believe the modern 5.56mm rounds are only designed to wound, a wounded man takes up far more of your enemies resources than a dead one.

 

[User00033]

And there are plenty of current and ex-servicemen who will tell you that a wounded man who you thought was dead is still quite capable of shooting you back! The 5.56 Nato was developed and adopted for lots of reasons, but it being chosen because it will wound and not kill is a myth.

Today’s enemies don’t utilise many resources to assist the wounded during battle, unlike British or American forces. And the enemy is a lot further away than they used to be. In Afghanistan and Iraq the average combat distance increased dramatically as the bad guys adopted 7.62x54 SVDs and RPGs. The US and British (etc) infantrymen were out-ranged for the first time with their M16s and M4s. Now they want an intermediate cartridge for longer range lethality, and the .264 is looking well positioned for the new battle rifles in development. I’m sure some of our American friends will know a lot more about this.

 

[Harry mac]

Just goes to show how much people's experience varies. I hated these bullets when I used them. Par for the course for me was a quickly fragmenting bullet, displaying multiple exit wounds. Muntjac would drop on the spot, but roe would invariably run for a short distance. In all cases the carcasses were a bit messy.
I finally settled on Nosler 95grn Ballistic tips in my .243. Tripping along at just a shade under 3100fps, they are mustard on roe and muntjac, and carcass damage is more than acceptable, I've not tried them on anything bigger.

 

[Boarboy]

:Spot on there.

85 grain Sierra GK and 37 grains of H4895 has been the sweet spot for most of the 243s I’ve had.
yet to try it in my (New to me) 1885.
Ken.:

Just goes to show how much people's experience varies. I hated these bullets when I used them. Par for the course for me was a quickly fragmenting bullet, displaying multiple exit wounds. Muntjac would drop on the spot, but roe would invariably run for a short distance. In all cases the carcasses were a bit messy.

I remember using these when I shot .243. Federal used to load a 85gr HPBT if that’s the same one? Hollow point. I do remember they certainly would kill well but as you mention, a couple I gralloched out would be a right mess!

 

[kenbro]

95 grain Hornady SST (Think that was its name?) was worst 6mm bullet i tried on fallow. Once gralloched it looked like an hand grenade had gone off inside. Flecks of blood everywhere fron shrapnel. Didn’t use again after that.
Ken.

 

[JagRob]

If you dont mind me weighing in from the USA. I bought a 243 30 years ago. Have taken 25+ deer/antelope. I almost always use a premium bullet. A Nosler partition in 100 grains. Long shots, short shots. Always a pass through. Have lent the rifle out a few times and always make a believer out of the person who borrowed it. Use it for ground hogs, crows, varmints, and use reloaded light weight bullets for it. 55-70 grains. Devastating. Burned the barrel out of the first one and had a new one put on.

 

[mchughcb]

I think the 243Win is perfect for crows.

 

[njc110381]

My take on it is the .243 should be able to kill any deer we have here cleanly. That said, I don't like it. I think it's a silly calibre. I've owned two and hated both for deer use.

It was very rare that a deer I shot with the .243 was what I would call a tidy carcass. Exits are hit and miss, and I like a good exit. If you look at shooting in Scotland you need 100gr, and that's the top end of what they like to throw. I'd much rather have a nice 6.5-7mm. Still not kicky or too much gun but happy throwing a bit more weight.

I've been told on numerous occasions that I must have been using the wrong bullet in my .243 to have these issues. All I can say is that I've never had issues with the wrong bullet in other calibres. I've even used those same "wrong" bullets in my 6.5 without issue. I put it down to the velocity, not the structure of the bullet.

 

[w0rks2much]

Hi all,

There are some very good points here and all situations/permissions are different.

I have successfully used my .243 on fallow right up to when I had a few issues. I heart shot a fallow buck at about 120 yards and he ran for about 100 yards into the bush and out of sight.

There was no exit wound and no blood trail, it took me nearly an hour to find him. Then a month later and it happened again but on a doe.

No no exit wound, no blood trail to follow.

I changed to my .308 and never had the same problem again. I now Always get an exit hole and a blood trail to follow.

Just my opinion folks, but there’s no worse feeling then when you start to think about a lost deer.

For me, on my permission it’s .308 all the way.

Jeff

 

[baguio]

A decent bullet out of the .243 would have exited, just like any other deer calibre.

It would appear that it's not just me who doesn't agree with your opinion takbok? Breckland reds are big animals. The 243 just doesn't have enough power for many of us.