Pistol for humane dispatch

[bowji john]

I don't know about humane dispatch in the UK - never have done it and have never asked for a hand gun to be conditioned for it

I do however shoot hand gun at a range and agree whole heartedly with the comments by flying felix about practice practice practice - they are in a different league to rifles for difficulty

We were encouraged to carry a 357 revolver on the Dangerous Game Course for Game Ranger in SA - It was unanimously agreed by our instructors to steer away from semi automatics when dealing with wildlife coz of their propensity for jamming

 

[Old-YOP]

You say that like Sikamalc is any sort of authority.

What, you mean apart from the fact that he's one of this site's owners and is a professional deer stalker managing various estates in Scotland and England.

I have never met the man, but as I have also never seen him come across on this forum as either arrogant or 'know-it-all' then yes, I would be inclined to listen to and accept his experience.

Maybe stop digging and look him up.

 

[jubnut]

What, you mean apart from the fact that he's one of this site's owners and is a professional deer stalker managing various estates in Scotland and England.

I have never met the man, but as I have also never seen him come across on this forum as either arrogant or 'know-it-all' then yes, I would be inclined to listen to and accept his experience.

Maybe stop digging and look him up.

how any of that makes him any more of an authority than anybody else on here I fail to see.

 

[Old-YOP]

how any of that makes him any more of an authority than anybody else on here I fail to see.

That's fine as long as you see Monkey Spanker's opinion on pistols as just his opinion - no more nor any less valid than Malc's - with MS's appeal to authority as "having shot thousands of deer of all six species in the UK, and attended hundreds of roadside humane dispatch callouts from the police" making no difference one way or the other.

I have no argument in that case.

 

[sikamalc]

You say that like Sikamalc is any sort of authority.

There is no reason why a rifle wouldn't be adequate in the situation he describes.

In some situations I have had to use a revolver. After some 40 years of guiding and stalking across the UK on all the species I have had on occasion to use a revolver, especially where wounded Sika Stags are involved.
I know of quite a few professional stalkers who have one and have used them at times, and not for roadside dispatch either.

There are also some childish comments on this thread, which does not surprise me in the least on this subject, and this is one of the reasons why stalkers will always be divided

 

[sikamalc]

If you can get to the beast, then so can your rifle? If you can point a short barrelled pistol accurately enough to hit the brain (which is necessary for such a low powered firearm), then you can surely point a long barrel with more accuracy and with enough muzzle energy to take an engine room shot which would be preferable in such a situation. Carcass damage is secondary to deer welfare. Even the deer tracking guys carry a short barrelled large calibre rifle as a preference to a pistol and they get into some very tight spots on a regular basis. Getting a safe, fatal shot into the beast should be your only concern at this point. I would also never chase after a gut shot deer at last light as you are more likely to just push it on or over a boundary. That one would wait until first light when it would most likely be dead anyway or at least still in the same place and unlikely to move.

I have never been in a stalking situation where I haven't been able to use a rifle to finish a beast off. I've certainly been in many urban situations where I couldn't use a pistol or a rifle though. Wounded muntjac in the middle of towns are now a regular occurrence. That is where the silenced .410 is the only safe option! I tackled a muntjac buck with a knife once - and only once! It became a bit of a 'fair fight' which I thankfully won, but it was very educational!

As a regular stalker, if you are having to carry out HD on a regular basis, then you are doing something very wrong! It should be only a very small percentage which require finishing off. Of that small percentage, there will only be an even smaller percentage which you can't follow up swiftly with a rifle which is why we all load more than one round and reload immediately.
Horses for courses though, and if you choose to carry a pistol then I'm not against it, but I'm yet to be convinced there is ever any real justification for it.
MS

As usual very opinionated. I would suggest you stick around a bit, if you havnt been in such a situation dosnt mean someone else has not. You are not convinced about most things it seems.

Like I said there are a number of FULL TIME professionals that have a revolver, and occasionally they are needed. In fact I did not ask for one with KENT police, I was offered one by my then FEO, Ann Taylor Strong, now retired.

Whether some of you agree or disagree is up to you but I do find that maybe if people stopped berating every other stalker about their choice of calibre or whether they have a dispatch pistol or not perhaps we would all be a bit more able to find a common goal.

And MS PLEASE do not call into account my professionalism, I do not call into account yours and I take rather a DIM view of you calling into question MINE.

Tread carefully??

 

[Rake Aboot]

Interesting to see how many shooters are happy to give up on owning guns.

Wrong sport maybe ?

 

[Ranger22]

Interesting to see how many shooters are happy to give up on owning guns.

Wrong sport maybe ?

Not giving up on owning guns, never had a pistol when they were legal. No need for one then and still no need for one now.

 

[2130martin]

Not giving up on owning guns, never had a pistol when they were legal. No need for one then and still no need for one now.

Well,it would appear you havent shot enough Deer or been around long enough....best you get the variation in now....
And i guess i had better “tread carefully??”!!!!

 

[bryn]

As usual very opinionated. I would suggest you stick around a bit, if you havnt been in such a situation dosnt mean someone else has not. You are not convinced about most things it seems.

Like I said there are a number of FULL TIME professionals that have a revolver, and occasionally they are needed. In fact I did not ask for one with KENT police, I was offered one by my then FEO, Ann Taylor Strong, now retired.

Whether some of you agree or disagree is up to you but I do find that maybe if people stopped berating every other stalker about their choice of calibre or whether they have a dispatch pistol or not perhaps we would all be a bit more able to find a common goal.

And MS PLEASE do not call into account my professionalism, I do not call into account yours and I take rather a DIM view of you calling into question MINE.

Tread carefully??

If you choose to jump in to the arena then expect a little rough and tumble.

bryn

 

[Chasey]

I dont own a dispatch pistol so have had to do all dispatching with my rifle

Personaly I found that to be not so easy in some instances

Aiming a rifle at such close range I have found to be problematic and I agree with Malcom that in heavy undergrowth dense woodland, its slow and cumbersome to bring to bear.


Yes, on occasion I have dispatched at range with enough time to set up sticks and the rifel would have been the go to choice even if id had a dispatch pistol. However on other occasions I found the issues of speed of bringing the rifle to bear and aiming, to be significant disadvantages.


I don't think I have ever felt safe enough to get close enough into a wounded deer to use a 410 shotgun.
My 410 cant reliably down a squirrel at 20m so id want to be pretty damed close (or are u using solid slug?)


The weight / convenience of carry issue is not relevant IMHO as if your doing a lost beast search, you'd be carrying both rifle and dispatch pistol


Accuracy? I am not sure why people find that such an issue? Yes in the old days I have shot a Browning high power and that was an absolute pig to keep in a group but a 32 or 38 with a soft recoil load is realy not that hard to shoot well. Putting in a 6" group on a 10m target should be pretty easy for anyone with even basic handgun training.

 

[Chasey]

how any of that makes him any more of an authority than anybody else on here I fail to see.

That seems a little disingenuous to me

As a stalker with about 100 deer to my name I have used dispatch shots maybe 10 -12 times, usually after a head shot where I can see signs of life despite the animal being flat on the ground. However, even with so few dispatch shots, I have had an incidence where the rifle proved to be difficult to use and most of them I felt it difficult to aim with confidence.

Since taking on novice stalkers, doing try days and running a syndicate of 14 stalkers I suddenly find I am doing quite a few lost animal searches. Mainly nothing more than the usual chest shot runner, but a few were found to still be breathing.


Malcolm is a professional guide and is taking people out weekly if not daily. I have absolutely no doubt hes got as LOT of experience of finding and dispatching animals as a result


Road side call out is a totally different thing. I am assuming for starters the animal is in a fixed position and pretty stationary? Or it would have run off long before the dispatch teem arrives. Having never done it I bow to others experience but even in my humble dispatch experience in woodlands, I can see strong reasoning in what Malcolm is saying.

 

[User00014]

These threads always make me chuckle, I am in full agreement with MS on this one, I once had a pistol sold it wasn’t suitable for my needs as a tracker or for HD on the side of the road on police call outs.

I spend a lot of time up and down the country and on the continent tracking for those who need our services and all I take is my 30-30 and I’m yet to find a situation in which it’s not been suited, failing that I use a knife and for RTA I use .410.

 

[nun_hunter]

Accuracy? I am not sure why people find that such an issue? Yes in the old days I have shot a Browning high power and that was an absolute pig to keep in a group but a 32 or 38 with a soft recoil load is realy not that hard to shoot well. Putting in a 6" group on a 10m target should be pretty easy for anyone with even basic handgun training.

If you're using a low power 38/357 you'd need to be brain shooting so you're not aiming for a 6" target but a 1.5-2" max which is a whole lot harder

 

[Chasey]

Accuracy? I am not sure why people find that such an issue? Yes in the old days I have shot a Browning high power and that was an absolute pig to keep in a group but a 32 or 38 with a soft recoil load is realy not that hard to shoot well. Putting in a 6" group on a 10m target should be pretty easy for anyone with even basic handgun training.

If you're using a low power 38/357 you'd need to be brain shooting so you're not aiming for a 6" target but a 1.5-2" max which is a whole lot harder

Personally I wouldn't fancy my chances at 10m with a 38 special 160g round doing 800FPS to my chest

 

[Ranger22]

If people are having to do a lot of dispatching whilst in the field, not RTA, there is something sadly wrong. Maybe people need to start looking at themselves to see what they can improve on. In my career I have shot many thousands of deer, out of that I think I can safely say i have dispatched less than 100 deer. Probably a lot less than that.

 

[Ranger22]

Well,it would appear you havent shot enough Deer or been around long enough....best you get the variation in now....
And i guess i had better “tread carefully??”!!!!

Yep your correct 14000 deer isn’t enough
”tread carefully”, there’s more to life than the SD

 

[User00025]

You say that like Sikamalc is any sort of authority.

There is no reason why a rifle wouldn't be adequate in the situation he describes.

Sorry my friend but if you have never been in a 500 acre block of Sitka spruce which is impenetrable above one foot from the ground and pitch black then you cannot understand the situation. A rifle is not maneuverable enough as the trees may only be 18" apart, My short barrelled 12 bore could just about be adjusted to shoot with a maglite strapped to it and I had a dog as well. Strange situations demand strange means.

 

[bowji john]

Why can't we discuss the merits of the topic without getting into a ****ing contest?

 

[stubear]

All this talk about "needing" a pistol is kinda misleading IMO. The concept of "need" does not feature anywhere in the legislation, only the concept of good reason. Good job too I think!

The only people who really NEED any sort of firearm are the ones who do it for a job full time or the ones who have their own ground and cant get access to an estate rifle.

Recreational stalkers could use the estate rifle on a paid outing - no need to own a firearm yourself surely?

Target rifle shooters can use club guns - I've been shooting .22 at 25y for many years and still dont own my own .22 target rifle, and a number of other people at the club do the same.

If you can clay shoot at a large establishment like Bisley or West London you dont need to own a shotgun either - They have plenty you can borrow.... And even some of the small 28 day-er shoots have shotguns you can borrow, albeit not enough to supply 100 odd people at a time but thats by the by.

And as for travelling abroad? Nope, most outfitters can supply guns locally on the ground. Kiss goodbye to your .375's and upwards..

Personally I think we need to be careful about saying who "needs" what. If you've got good reason as per the law, meet the licencing conditions and can afford the kit fill your boots I say.

Our syndicate ground in Scotland has hugely thick sitka and spruce plantations all over the place - I personally would struggle to walk between the trees with my jacket on up there, never mind carrying a rifle as well.

I can totally see a handgun being about the only viable option tracking and dispatching a wounded deer in there, and if you want to go in after a wounded and angry 25 stone red stag with just a knife then you're a braver man than I... Take a few smoke grenades in with you so you can signal your location once the stag has turned you inside out with its antlers and we need to get the paramedics in.

To answer the OPs question - all you can really do is apply and see what gets said. I cant quite find the section in the guidance but as I recall it says something along the lines of "each case will be taken on its own merit and the fact that someone else in the area has been granted authority does not mean that another person should be."

There is some good guidance from BASC here under the humane dispatch section - https://basc.org.uk/firearms/guidance-and-fact-sheets/