Pistol for humane dispatch

New Avon Arms
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No ****ing competition here, like I said in my post its up to the individual, obviously you didn't read my post correctly, and I have no problem with strong debate. What I do have a problem with is people calling into question anyone's professionalism. You do not know me and nor does Monkey Spanker. Therefore all I ask of anyone on here is to be polite and not judge people. I use the pistol on the ODD occasion, its my preference.

If you don't like the fact that some stalkers use this method that's up to you, but like I said don't start judging people YOU don't know, and are never likely to know either.

I have not called into question Monkey spankers abilities, I am aware of where he stalks in Northamptonshire, I have also stalked the area, if he prefers a shotgun for dispatch that's fine with me, but I expect a reasonable amount of politeness, something sadly lacking in some people on here I guess.
 
Chasey said:
Personally I wouldn't fancy my chances at 10m with a 38 special 160g round doing 800FPS to my chest
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I'm sure it would kill but the point of humane dispatch is to end suffering. The definition at work is along the lines of "destruction of the brain or CNS leading to instant death/cease of brain function and/or render the animal instantly unconscious and insensitive to pain". So shooting it in the chest with a low velocity round isn't going to achieve that, just cause more pain and hope it bleeds out. If you can only get to 10m then just use the rifle you shot it with with (which using a centrefire rifle with a 160 grain bullet will be circa 2200ft/lbs vs your 227ft/lb revolver). Pistols have their place and use but 10m away chest shooting isn't really where they excel, 2-3m in the brain more so.
 
bowji john said:
My comment about a ****ing contest was made largely as a result of comments made about you not by you
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Thank you I realise that. Some people on here are very good at judging others, or should I say BAD at judging others. That's there problem, and I guess the way they were bought up or made!!

A good friend of mine who was managing the Duke of Northumberlands estates, I think about 180,000 acres also had an unblocked 9mm semi auto pistol for dispatch. Sime on here may have known of him C.K. Along with all the other professional and semi professional stalkers that might have a dispatch pistol they didn't really need it ?? But as I say each to their own method.
 
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nun_hunter said:
.... I have shot a Browning high power and that was an absolute pig to keep in a group but a 32 or 38 with a soft recoil load is realy not that hard to shoot well. Putting in a 6" group on a 10m target should be pretty easy for anyone with even basic handgun training...
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You would think so, but unfortunately reality doesn't support it. I see people fail to achieve a 6 inch group at 10m on a weekly basis.
 
stubear said:
All this talk about "needing" a pistol is kinda misleading IMO. The concept of "need" does not feature anywhere in the legislation, only the concept of good reason. Good job too I think!

The only people who really NEED any sort of firearm are the ones who do it for a job full time or the ones who have their own ground and cant get access to an estate rifle.

Recreational stalkers could use the estate rifle on a paid outing - no need to own a firearm yourself surely?

Target rifle shooters can use club guns - I've been shooting .22 at 25y for many years and still dont own my own .22 target rifle, and a number of other people at the club do the same.

If you can clay shoot at a large establishment like Bisley or West London you dont need to own a shotgun either - They have plenty you can borrow.... And even some of the small 28 day-er shoots have shotguns you can borrow, albeit not enough to supply 100 odd people at a time but thats by the by.

And as for travelling abroad? Nope, most outfitters can supply guns locally on the ground. Kiss goodbye to your .375's and upwards..

Personally I think we need to be careful about saying who "needs" what. If you've got good reason as per the law, meet the licencing conditions and can afford the kit fill your boots I say.

Our syndicate ground in Scotland has hugely thick sitka and spruce plantations all over the place - I personally would struggle to walk between the trees with my jacket on up there, never mind carrying a rifle as well.

I can totally see a handgun being about the only viable option tracking and dispatching a wounded deer in there, and if you want to go in after a wounded and angry 25 stone red stag with just a knife then you're a braver man than I... Take a few smoke grenades in with you so you can signal your location once the stag has turned you inside out with its antlers and we need to get the paramedics in.

To answer the OPs question - all you can really do is apply and see what gets said. I cant quite find the section in the guidance but as I recall it says something along the lines of "each case will be taken on its own merit and the fact that someone else in the area has been granted authority does not mean that another person should be."

There is some good guidance from BASC here under the humane dispatch section - https://basc.org.uk/firearms/guidance-and-fact-sheets/
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+1

Couldn't agree more. I'm still waiting for the people who use the "need" philosophy to every other aspect of their lives. The only things you need are:

food
water
air
shelter
medical treatment (if required).

Everything else is a want.
 
I think one problem that the OP may face is that he has owned pistols before the handgun ban yet appears, from reading his post, not to have had any of them at that time conditioned for humane dispatch. That may of course be that he didn't shoot deer before 1996 or that he is now shooting deer over different ground than before. So here is why there may be a problem I can only speak from what I've encountered. It refers in general terms that may or may not be relevant to the OP.

Prior to stopping shooting over the relevant land I had, in the early 1990s, a .357 Magnum Smith & Wesson Model revolver on my FAC for not only target shooting but also specifically conditioned for shooting feral goats over that named land and that named land only and only for shooting feral goats. This was before people realised that they could get an income from continentals paying money to shoot these things.

So at a time they were regarded as competing with the resident roe and red deer for food. Zo they were considered as vermin. As indeed roe deer once were. But and this is the thing that's coming back to the OP's post. I never ever had the thing conditioned also for humane dispatch. I didn't want it for other than that. Not for deer, nor caged trapped or snared foxes or feral cats but just target shooting and shooting of feral goats. And never took the thing out when stalking deer on the hill. It weighed over two pounds.

So many police forces will have no problem with a newcomer who has entered the sport after the handgun ban requesting a humane dispatch pistol.But what they will have is an "issue" shall we say with someone who owned pistols before the handgun ban that were conditioned then only for target shooting but not for humane dispatch. The question will directly be if the applicant needs it why didn't they have it so conditioned on their FAC when they owned pistols before the handgun ban?

So I won't debate if a pistol (and for that I mean pistols and revolvers) is needed or not or if it is just affectation at best and "one upmanship" at worst as that is down to an individual's circumstance or conscience. But certainly if you stalked deer before the handgun ban and at that time had pistols on your FAC that were only for target shooting but not conditioned for humane dispatch the first question (even though its twenty years since the handgun ban) will by why is the applicant asking for it now when they never ever did ask for such back then?
 
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I know it's hot but try not to let it get to you chaps.
I personally don't give a toss how you go after your wounded deer, but I do think it's a shame that things like this get so inflammatory. I like to follow these threads to try and learn something about stalking but at the moment is people are falling out simple on a difference of opinion of how they go about THERE business.
Threats, accusations we don't need any antis at this rate
 
sikamalc said:
No ****ing competition here, like I said in my post its up to the individual, obviously you didn't read my post correctly, and I have no problem with strong debate. What I do have a problem with is people calling into question anyone's professionalism. You do not know me and nor does Monkey Spanker. Therefore all I ask of anyone on here is to be polite and not judge people. I use the pistol on the ODD occasion, its my preference.

If you don't like the fact that some stalkers use this method that's up to you, but like I said don't start judging people YOU don't know, and are never likely to know either.

I have not called into question Monkey spankers abilities, I am aware of where he stalks in Northamptonshire, I have also stalked the area, if he prefers a shotgun for dispatch that's fine with me, but I expect a reasonable amount of politeness, something sadly lacking in some people on here I guess.
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Malc,
I don't think I've questioned your professionalism at any point, and as I've stated, I don't have a problem with those that choose to carry a pistol to carry out their work as they deem necessary, especially pro stalkers such as yourself. I even looked at getting a little Bond Derringer myself for discrete dispatches beside busy roads etc as it gives the option for .410 or a 45 Colt Long without passers by even seeing a firearm. I would even go as far to say that you are far more likely to require HD as a result of numerous novices 'exceeding their limitations' compared to the success rate of someone like Ranger22 who is able to cull thousands of deer calmly and efficiently as you'd expect.
My problem is with the numerous people that wish to abuse this privilege purely as an excuse to have a pistol, which will ultimately ruin for those such as yourself that may really need one.
When the pistol ban came in (which let's be clear - I wasn't in favour of!), we saw some people with no interest in deer management booking onto DSC 1 courses in a vain attempt to keep their pistols!
This is why their issue has to be carefully regulated for people like yourself, RSPCA, Slaughter men, etc to retain this right.
My only criticism was of your choice to chase after a wounded gut shot sika stag at last light. I'm sure you had your reasons which I wouldn't ever question, and to be fair, 'best pratice' on this has changed over recent years regarding the amount of time we should wait before follow up of such shot placement, and I know this happened many years ago as you've posted it before. Much of this has come about by our various dog tracking agencies working with and learning from our European colleagues that have been doing this for a lot longer than us with dedicated dog breeds. However, please see my criticism as constructive and aimed at educating others which was its intention. If a candidate submitted a portfolio with such action on now, and signed off by an AW, the evidence would rejected and most probably a 'poor performance' report raised against the AW.
That is the beauty of forums such as this - they promote Continued Professional Development to a vast array of stalkers that may otherwise lose touch with the continually evolving world of deer management that we live in.
I'm sorry if I touched a nerve there and will try to tread more carefully in future.
Regards,
MS:tiphat:
 
Monkey Spanker said:
Malc,
I don't think I've questioned your professionalism at any point, and as I've stated, I don't have a problem with those that choose to carry a pistol to carry out their work as they deem necessary, especially pro stalkers such as yourself. I even looked at getting a little Bond Derringer myself for discrete dispatches beside busy roads etc as it gives the option for .410 or a 45 Colt Long without passers by even seeing a firearm. I would even go as far to say that you are far more likely to require HD as a result of numerous novices 'exceeding their limitations' compared to the success rate of someone like Ranger22 who is able to cull thousands of deer calmly and efficiently as you'd expect.
My problem is with the numerous people that wish to abuse this privilege purely as an excuse to have a pistol, which will ultimately ruin for those such as yourself that may really need one.
When the pistol ban came in (which let's be clear - I wasn't in favour of!), we saw some people with no interest in deer management booking onto DSC 1 courses in a vain attempt to keep their pistols!
This is why their issue has to be carefully regulated for people like yourself, RSPCA, Slaughter men, etc to retain this right.
My only criticism was of your choice to chase after a wounded gut shot sika stag at last light. I'm sure you had your reasons which I wouldn't ever question, and to be fair, 'best pratice' on this has changed over recent years regarding the amount of time we should wait before follow up of such shot placement, and I know this happened many years ago as you've posted it before. Much of this has come about by our various dog tracking agencies working with and learning from our European colleagues that have been doing this for a lot longer than us with dedicated dog breeds. However, please see my criticism as constructive and aimed at educating others which was its intention. If a candidate submitted a portfolio with such action on now, and signed off by an AW, the evidence would rejected and most probably a 'poor performance' report raised against the AW.
That is the beauty of forums such as this - they promote Continued Professional Development to a vast array of stalkers that may otherwise lose touch with the continually evolving world of deer management that we live in.
I'm sorry if I touched a nerve there and will try to tread more carefully in future.
Regards,
MS:tiphat:
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Thank you,

I do agree that there maybe some individuals that just want a dispatch weapon for the sake of it, but I would assume that as a rule their FEO would ensure that they really had a need for it?

As I have mentioned I have used it on odd occasions, mostly when stalking with clients on Sika Stags in the rut in heavily planted forestry areas where it is almost impossible to raise a rifle, even with good light it is always fairly dark inside such places and whilst the light in the late afternoon or morning can be good, once inside its a different situation.

I have used it once in a roadside dispatch as I rarely have it with me when I am in West Sussex on Fallow. However when with clients in the highlands after Sika I carry it mostly because Sika are taken early morning and evening and now and again clients have wounded a stag, which as you know are always difficult. It is in these circumstances that I have used the weapon. Crawling on your hands and knees in planted forestry with my dog on along lead is always a joy, and whether its early morning or evening the client wants his trophy and we always do our best to achieve this and up to now have not lost a beast. I am well aware about pushing any beast when gut shot, but in the areas near Brora in the highlands we have access to vast areas that are like a planted hedge when it comes to some of the forestry, and if we left a wounded Sika stag in a place like this, the chances of collecting it the next day would not be high.

Much depends on where the beast is shot by the client and again this comes down to experience and knowing your deer and ground, if it clipped the liver and rumen then it will certainly be dead, but without any lie I have had Sika stags up there run over 200yds into this type of terrain with such a wound, without showing a strike reaction. I have also managed Sika in Dorset.

Of course with dark red sticky blood and maybe a touch of green in it one is aware of where in these circumstances the shot has been placed and that the beast will die within a fairly short time, but in such circumstances I prefer a revolver, but as I have said each to their own preference.
 
sikamalc said:
Thank you,

I do agree that there maybe some individuals that just want a dispatch weapon for the sake of it, but I would assume that as a rule their FEO would ensure that they really had a need for it?

As I have mentioned I have used it on odd occasions, mostly when stalking with clients on Sika Stags in the rut in heavily planted forestry areas where it is almost impossible to raise a rifle, even with good light it is always fairly dark inside such places and whilst the light in the late afternoon or morning can be good, once inside its a different situation.

I have used it once in a roadside dispatch as I rarely have it with me when I am in West Sussex on Fallow. However when with clients in the highlands after Sika I carry it mostly because Sika are taken early morning and evening and now and again clients have wounded a stag, which as you know are always difficult. It is in these circumstances that I have used the weapon. Crawling on your hands and knees in planted forestry with my dog on along lead is always a joy, and whether its early morning or evening the client wants his trophy and we always do our best to achieve this and up to now have not lost a beast. I am well aware about pushing any beast when gut shot, but in the areas near Brora in the highlands we have access to vast areas that are like a planted hedge when it comes to some of the forestry, and if we left a wounded Sika stag in a place like this, the chances of collecting it the next day would not be high.

Much depends on where the beast is shot by the client and again this comes down to experience and knowing your deer and ground, if it clipped the liver and rumen then it will certainly be dead, but without any lie I have had Sika stags up there run over 200yds into this type of terrain with such a wound, without showing a strike reaction. I have also managed Sika in Dorset.

Of course with dark red sticky blood and maybe a touch of green in it one is aware of where in these circumstances the shot has been placed and that the beast will die within a fairly short time, but in such circumstances I prefer a revolver, but as I have said each to their own preference.
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+1 Malc, when the cover is only a foot off the ground and it's belly crawl to a wounded sika who can do 30 mph through that stuff, whatever comes to hand. As I have said a good dog on lead gives an edge.
 
sikamalc said:
No ****ing competition here, like I said in my post its up to the individual, obviously you didn't read my post correctly, and I have no problem with strong debate. What I do have a problem with is people calling into question anyone's professionalism. You do not know me and nor does Monkey Spanker. Therefore all I ask of anyone on here is to be polite and not judge people. I use the pistol on the ODD occasion, its my preference.

If you don't like the fact that some stalkers use this method that's up to you, but like I said don't start judging people YOU don't know, and are never likely to know either.

I have not called into question Monkey spankers abilities, I am aware of where he stalks in Northamptonshire, I have also stalked the area, if he prefers a shotgun for dispatch that's fine with me, but I expect a reasonable amount of politeness, something sadly lacking in some people on here I guess.
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Wouldn't worry too much malc if you strip away the bits of paper from ms there's very little of substance
 
Looking at the post re pistols are next to useless at close range :doh: I must now sell all the IPSC awards I won and give back the cash and rewards amounting to a large amounts :smug: I must have been wrong all along ? taking on a moving target at 1-100 mt's while running from point to point shooting on the move must all have been a dream ! taking shots on 2" targets while running towards or sideways must be beyond the comprehension of some reading the views but then i was trained as a tool of trade It took some years to perfect ,its not just another gun in a box ,while I do agree if you have not the skill to point and shoot then a S/G is the better choice as it needs less skill but the result is the same and its as simple as that and it comes down to skill hand and eye if you can then you can if you can't don't . So try to keep in mind we lost our pistols and some of us our trade, I don't and would never bash a long gun or a bird gun they all need skills . So just to state its the owners that cant not the guns .
 
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paul o' said:
Looking at the post re pistols are next to useless at close range :doh: I must now sell all the IPSC awards I won and give back the cash and rewards amounting to a large amounts :smug: I must have been wrong all along ? taking on a moving target at 1-100 mt's while running from point to point shooting on the move must all have been a dream ! taking shots on 2" targets while running towards or sideways must be beyond the comprehension of some reading the views but then I was trained as a tool of trade I took some years to perfect ,its not just another gun in a box ,while I do agree if you have not the skill to point and shoot then a S/G is the better choice as it needs less skill but the result is the same and its as simple as that and it comes down to skill hand and eye if you can then you can if you can't don't . So try to keep in mind we lost our pistols and some of us our trade, I don't and would never bash a long gun or a bird gun they all need skills . So just to state its the owners that cant not the guns .
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Woah!!!!!! Monkey spanker said you don't need one and they're useless ! Who the hell do you think you are to have your own views and experience????
 
Monkey Spanker said:
Pistols are not very accurate, very likely to ricochet, (especially with a miss which is likely!) and easy to lose.
Most stalkers that hold pistols for humane dispatch merely hold them as a very loose excuse for holding one at all.

MS
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There you have it ! From god himself
 
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