So . . . .
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jimmy milnes
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I've read the opening part marked in blue on the link
Churchill, a former army officer, war reporter and British Prime Minister
(1940-45 and 1951-55), was one of the first to call for the creation of a
‘United States of Europe’. Following the Second World War, he was convinced
that only a united Europe could guarantee peace. His aim was to eliminate the
European ills of nationalism and war-mongering once and for all.
He formulated his conclusions drawn from the lessons of history in his famous
‘Speech to the academic youth’ held at the University of Zurich in 1946: “There is
a remedy which ... would in a few years make all Europe ... free and ... happy.
It is to re-create the European family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it
with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom.
We must build a kind of United States of Europe.”
Do you see the people of Europe free ? ''I suppose it's reliant on your concept of free''
Do you see the people of Europe happy ? I don't
Do you see the people of Europe safe ? ''No mass wars or genocide but safe ! I think not''
Mr Churchill was a fantastic man in my eyes make no mistake but, I do not think the European union was his vision.
I admire your commitment to your believe I truly do and long may you have the rights to those beliefs, however it is mine that we need to be free of the EU as it is, an most definitely will try to morph into something totally different to what it is today.
The other side of that coin is that it will implode due to immigration as I'm surebeing the educated man you obviously are, that you see the same push back against it in most ''western cultural'' parts of the EU that I see.
Regards
Jimmy.
I have a great deal of respect for your options there, however, what people seem to be most mislead on with regards to this mess is : trade and law.
The UK is in the current position of being about to completely screw its self over in a rather massive way.
There are some very brilliant minds who will make themselves billions of pounds out of Brexit. The vast majority of people in the uk are not going to do well out of this in the Slightest, and that is an Understatement.
The Trade agreements that the UK doesn’t have - with anyone ......not a single country in the world! Is where the problem lies.
I wish people could get over this xenophobic approach to the EU and see that the EU is a trading group , one of the most powerful in the world, it’s trading laws and rules are not based on emotion and silly playground name calling harking back to the world wars ! It’s a mechanical trading group that is run on laws that are backed up with extreme trading powers. The UK has been extremely instrumental in forming many of these agreements on trade within the EU and around the globe and currently holds rights and positions that other countries can only dream of.
The reason why so many people voted to leave was because they had been promised an improvement on their very poor lives. And, they have been lied to.
Kindest regards, Olaf
deeangeo
Well-Known Member
I'm not of a mind to slit my wrists over the prospect of a challenging time once out of the EU Olaf.
I think this country, in spite of its politicians, not because of them, will face the world, do well and be better as a result of leaving the EU.
Personally, I've always viewed the cup as 'half full'.
I think this country, in spite of its politicians, not because of them, will face the world, do well and be better as a result of leaving the EU.
Personally, I've always viewed the cup as 'half full'.
Totally agree with you my friend, the problem is that the UK cannot trade under WTO rules alone without being subjected to crippling scenarios that make it all but impossible to prosper under. If people thinkbthat the EU trading rules are holding the UK back, what do you think will happen when we start being knocked about by the other 164 odd members of the WTO, who all have much to gain from opposing any trade agreements that we put forward?
Kindest regards Olaf
Cumbrian 1
Well-Known Member
And who is to say that we wont be able to do it again but for our own interests and the greater good of the UK. I can see a period of turmoil for a while but once the EU and the rest of the word comes to grips with it the UK will trade with all of them and have a good deal.
Woodsmoke
Well-Known Member
Independence was never about anti-English sentiment, it was always about what was best for Scotland. The problem we now have is that the Scottish general public in their collective stupidity gave the SNP carte blanche to effectively become dictators in Scotland with no real political challenger. We now find ourselves in the worst of all possible situations, with a rabidly-socialist government with sufficient devolved power to make an utter balls-up of Scotland, while still being subjugated by the very entity Independence would have freed us from. Sturgeons fervent wish to remain in the EU is borne of her own megalomania, in my view, as she wants to be one of Europe's leading voices, and her supporters want a piece of that action too. What's actually best for Scotland and her people as a whole comes a long way behind SNP ambition
tackb
Well-Known Member
Im sorry, but you fail to see my point. I did not say that we were not major contributors in the Eu. My point was that its not „their project „ it’s our project Too , and that we are Major Players.
Kindest regards, Olaf
tackb
Well-Known Member
do we get a say in proportion to our financial input or do we have equal say despite paying more than many others?
Hornet 6
Well-Known Member
There are those for and against a second referendum, most of those for it seem to think it is the right thing to do because of the lies and propaganda from both side leading up to the vote meant people didn't know what they were voting for.
To those who feel like that, I'm truly sorry that you fail to see that the majority voted out because they didn't like the direction that the EU was following.
Also note we voted out, not out only if we gat a deal, they just wanted out by the fastest means possible.
I don't count myself as any great political genius, but I do know when I'm being lied to, cheated on, and generally treated as a mushroom.
So to all those who feel a second vote is needed, to all those who voted to remain, please all of you, please feel free to move to the continent while the borders are open, but if you don't go, please just shut your noise.
The rest of us will happily stay here are make the best of what comes along, and while on that subject, Scotland, Ireland (north and south) and Wales please feel free to leave the UK if you feel it appropriate.
Neil.
To those who feel like that, I'm truly sorry that you fail to see that the majority voted out because they didn't like the direction that the EU was following.
Also note we voted out, not out only if we gat a deal, they just wanted out by the fastest means possible.
I don't count myself as any great political genius, but I do know when I'm being lied to, cheated on, and generally treated as a mushroom.
So to all those who feel a second vote is needed, to all those who voted to remain, please all of you, please feel free to move to the continent while the borders are open, but if you don't go, please just shut your noise.
The rest of us will happily stay here are make the best of what comes along, and while on that subject, Scotland, Ireland (north and south) and Wales please feel free to leave the UK if you feel it appropriate.
Neil.
Woodsmoke
Well-Known Member
Exactly this. I voted to leave the European Union. I believe that was one of two choices on the paper? 'Stay?' or 'Go?'
Nowhere did I see an option stating 'Leave, but only after fully-understanding each and every implication, and only then after fully-considering how butt-hurt the minority voters are going to be'
But surely you had/have expectation of what leave must deliver? If not and you've always been content to simply to walk away with zero regard to a so-called "deal" that might better be called arrangements, fair enough but as I see the situation whichever of the 2 current options comes to pass in late January 2019 it is certain to leave a very large percentage of those who voted to leave most unhappy and more than a tad frustrated.
K
We have equal say , despite paying more than many others, because we make much more than many other countries in the EU through being members of the worlds largest economy . Much the same as how our voting system in the UK works , just because you earn lots of money, your not given 4 votes whereas a poor person gets none !
. However, the amount a member pays is based upon the trading benefits that they have had from sharing a massive free trade portfolio with very competitive WTO agreed Tarifs.
Something that you may not have noticed is that EU membership entities us to free trade trade with all of its members and on very competitive terms with many WTO members that it has trade agreements with.
Within the UN there are 193 country’s, of them , only 35 are are classed as advanced economies , and of them 27 of those are in Europe.
Kindest regards, Olaf
Woodsmoke
Well-Known Member
We're already frustrated! May, et al, have had the last two years to get this sorted out, but they've done absolutely sweet Fanny Adams except stick their head in the sand and leave it until the last possible minute. Probably in the hope that it'll become someone else's problem in the meantime. Now TM is rushing around like a headless chicken trying to force through a p iss-poor deal while the rest of her party fall over themselves to disassociate themselves from her, yet somehow this is all the fault of those of us who voted to leave??? I don't f*cking think so . . . . .
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
I do feel some sympathy for those 'democrats' who cannot reconcile themselves to the majority view...
Loneliness, is a cloak you wear,
a deep shade of blue is always there...
Loneliness, is a cloak you wear,
a deep shade of blue is always there...
Its most certainly not the fault of all those who voted to leave mate.
The problems that we are seeing is that the many of the Uk government were under the belief that they would be able to negotiate good trading terms with the EU and with other WTO members whilst leaving the EU. Unfortunately, there is nothing better on the table because trade deals are not cuddly chats , they involve international law and very complex damage limitations to other countries within the WTO . For example, I think that things went a tad off when the USA blocked our WTO trading proposals alongside many other countries. So much for all those lies about us being able to offer Tarif free trade to the rest of the world eh !
Unless your an international trade negotiator, it’s really not anybody’s fault other than a bunch of completely dishonest politicians .
Ps , great thread mate, it’s really interesting to read some of these views on here.
Kindest regards, Olaf
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