Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Very well put Malcolm.
Elephant charge in Zim
- Thread starter NickJ
- Start date
Very well put Malcolm.
I totally understand about culling anything bud and the need to keep the population in check .But to have to shoot the 2nd one ?? Because it was Charging them after the first one went down??? Just doesn't sit right with me .As I said each to there own
Glib comments.... No not at all bud ,, murdering bambi lol lol lol
Kjf
Culling for population control and to prevent damage etc aside (which I understand the need for), what happens with the elephant carcass? Does the carcass go into the human food chain or what? Sorry to show my ignorance, but the questions are asked out of genuine curiosity.
sikamalc
Administrator
Having now viewed the video clip I can see where some might question the need to take the young bull.
Its always easy sitting behind a computer screen to pass judgement, and that is not aimed at anyone on this thread, as it is entirely different when faced with a situation such as in the video clip.
However from my own opinion they were a bit hasty in taking the second animal. It may have stopped with a warning shot first, but to say that it would have not completed the charge is a remark that I doubt anyone would make if they were standing there with it baring down on them. Believe you me Elephant can cover a short distance very quickly and a head on shot is only open to a hunter when the elephant has its trunk down and you are still at a distance where the angle to brain shoot is available. Don't forget the brain sits at the back of the head and one needs an enormous amount of penetration to reach the back of the head and with the right angle to do so.
Side on shot is always I think a better option, between the eye and the ear. But this is not available with a charging Elephant. No one can judge too much in these situations. The PH would loose his reputation and be almost finished if he lost a client. So you are faced with a dilemma, shoot to kill or risk it not finishing the charge, in which case it would be too late. Not an easy call to make?
Its always easy sitting behind a computer screen to pass judgement, and that is not aimed at anyone on this thread, as it is entirely different when faced with a situation such as in the video clip.
However from my own opinion they were a bit hasty in taking the second animal. It may have stopped with a warning shot first, but to say that it would have not completed the charge is a remark that I doubt anyone would make if they were standing there with it baring down on them. Believe you me Elephant can cover a short distance very quickly and a head on shot is only open to a hunter when the elephant has its trunk down and you are still at a distance where the angle to brain shoot is available. Don't forget the brain sits at the back of the head and one needs an enormous amount of penetration to reach the back of the head and with the right angle to do so.
Side on shot is always I think a better option, between the eye and the ear. But this is not available with a charging Elephant. No one can judge too much in these situations. The PH would loose his reputation and be almost finished if he lost a client. So you are faced with a dilemma, shoot to kill or risk it not finishing the charge, in which case it would be too late. Not an easy call to make?
sikamalc
Administrator
Most of the meat will go into the food chain. If its tribal lands they will have eaten or taken it all away within a few hours, guts and all.
Thanks sikamalc.
NickJ
Well-Known Member
Very topical in Botswana at the moment where they are debating whether to allow hunting on state land again: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0c64gq7/botswana-trouble-in-the-elephant-sanctuary
Neoublie1
Well-Known Member
Growing up in South Africa
X3
A Guy Out West
Well-Known Member
Carl, don't the natives get to eat the meat? They are happy to get it too, correct?
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Yes, Sir. Every single ounce of it. They strip the carcass clean. They also get a proportion of the trophy fee. The rest of the money goes to finance our anti-poaching operations. Hunting areas, paradoxically, have now become safe-havens for elephants in many places. If you are a smart elephant, and understand statistics, come and live with the hunters...
CarlW
Well-Known Member
I hope you are right. We have nothing to be ashamed of. As hunters, we really do act like the ugly kid with low self-esteem who hopes no-one will notice he showed up to the party and throw him out.Let's see how long before this thread and video ends up on instagram/facebook/etc. and then on BBC...
Each one of us on here contributes far more in a week to the conservation of wildlife on this planet than the average Joe will in a lifetime. I rarely meet a hunter, of any flavour, who is not a conservationist first, a naturalist second, and a hunter third. Pick your chins up off your chests and be proud. Don't hide!
Kano383
Well-Known Member
A good read on the reality of elephant culling (or lack thereof) in Botswana, and other places.
When Bambi eats 400 pounds of hay and drinks 200lt of water every day, and has a hobby of destroying trees to nibble on a few leaves, things go sour very fast. Entire ecosystems are trashed, erosion sets in, other species disappear - and eco-warriors sip their Quadruple Mocha Latte with Vanilla, Kale, And A Hint Of Tofu contentedly, in a lala-land far away.
www.mahohboh.org
When Bambi eats 400 pounds of hay and drinks 200lt of water every day, and has a hobby of destroying trees to nibble on a few leaves, things go sour very fast. Entire ecosystems are trashed, erosion sets in, other species disappear - and eco-warriors sip their Quadruple Mocha Latte with Vanilla, Kale, And A Hint Of Tofu contentedly, in a lala-land far away.
About The Culling Of Elephants In Botswana - True Green Alliance
I am amazed at how many elephant management experts there are in the Western World. Gauged by the number of letters of advice that land upon the desk of the Botswana President, Mr Mokgweetsi Masisi, there must be thousands. Now we have more advice from a well-known South African, John Varty...
www.mahohboh.org
I quite like the look of the TGA. I might have to join. 500 Rand isn't a lot of money and they seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet as I generally do. I need to look into them more but first impressions are good.
I spent a great many years not agreeing with hunting elephants at all. I thought it was an awful thing to do but I hate to say it, I was sucked in by the general uneducated opinions from the media and society. Look a little deeper, the same as many of us have done with deer stalking, and you will see that some culling is essential. Although I have no desire to shoot an elephant or rhino my views have completely changed over the last five years and I support those who do so.
As for shooting that charging elephant, it's a tough call. It didn't look all that serious about the charge but I'm not a qualified PH and I wasn't there. I find it difficult to challenge their decision based upon those facts - they were under a lot of pressure and they didn't have an hour to watch the video and replay it a dozen times. They had a couple of seconds, if that.
I spent a great many years not agreeing with hunting elephants at all. I thought it was an awful thing to do but I hate to say it, I was sucked in by the general uneducated opinions from the media and society. Look a little deeper, the same as many of us have done with deer stalking, and you will see that some culling is essential. Although I have no desire to shoot an elephant or rhino my views have completely changed over the last five years and I support those who do so.
As for shooting that charging elephant, it's a tough call. It didn't look all that serious about the charge but I'm not a qualified PH and I wasn't there. I find it difficult to challenge their decision based upon those facts - they were under a lot of pressure and they didn't have an hour to watch the video and replay it a dozen times. They had a couple of seconds, if that.
For those looking for eloquent and powerful arguments on the value of hunter conservation, read Steven Rinella and listen to his podcasts (Meat Eater). Rinella has comprehensively researched the incredible impacts of hunter initiated, funded and managed conservation efforts in the US, and how many populations of various animals have rebounded to the point at which they are now requiring control.
If anything, it helps otherwise uninformed deer stalkers get their heads around the critical importance of the hunter conservationist in managing animal populations and environments, particularly those environments in which the animals must successfully co-habit with significant human populations.
Just don't expect the rabid hysterical YouTubers to take any notice of this reality, because they won't.
The challenge though - when espousing the hunter conservationist model - is seeing through the hyperbole and spotting the crooks. Unfortunately there are many countries around the world where enormous fees supposedly used for conservation purposes are simply funnelled straight into back pockets. The countries in which a lot of the exotic big game hunting is undertaken often don't have very transparent systems that can easily be audited to see what proportion of the fees are going to where they say its going.
If anything, it helps otherwise uninformed deer stalkers get their heads around the critical importance of the hunter conservationist in managing animal populations and environments, particularly those environments in which the animals must successfully co-habit with significant human populations.
Just don't expect the rabid hysterical YouTubers to take any notice of this reality, because they won't.
The challenge though - when espousing the hunter conservationist model - is seeing through the hyperbole and spotting the crooks. Unfortunately there are many countries around the world where enormous fees supposedly used for conservation purposes are simply funnelled straight into back pockets. The countries in which a lot of the exotic big game hunting is undertaken often don't have very transparent systems that can easily be audited to see what proportion of the fees are going to where they say its going.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
I agree very strongly with your last point. We eventually insisted on moving to an approach where we finance specific, costed projects voted for by councils of villagers. This is after years of handing cash over to local chiefs and administrators to distribute according to their preference.
To each his/her own. I haven't shot any dangerous game at all and, for me, it just doesn't float my boat. But I like to shoot driven game (pheasants/partridge etc) and I know there's some on here who aren't into that at all. So I certainly wouldn't condemn anyone out of hand for anything. We all have our own likes and dislikes and what we consider acceptable. Trying to bend everyone else to your will is really just the thing antis do.
Viva la difference!
Viva la difference!
kieran222
Well-Known Member
I am not sure he would have gotten a second shot off after a warning as he seemed to struggle to re load for a second shot.
sikamalc
Administrator
Like I said its always difficult to judge without being on the ground at the time. The area I hunted was on the edge of Lake Kariba in Zim. We were on a Buffalo hunt, not for Elephant. However within this area they generally culled 12 cow Elephant a year, which to a certain extent made them dangerous to approach as they were used to being hunted and were not very tolerant of humans. The Elephant I culled had lost a good third of its trunk, probably through being in a poachers snare. This also made it bad tempered and not to be taken lightly when approaching it in thick Jess.
It was killed with a single brain shot from my 375HH, and most of it consumed or taken away by the locals in about 3 to 4 hours. The ivory was kept by the game department.
Hunting dangerous game is dangerous, and sometimes decisions are made that at the time seemed correct. Its easy for all of us to look at such a video and make comments about what we would do, but then we are not faced with 2 to 3 ton of Elephant about to take out its revenge on you. I would probably have shot it, too close and its all over.
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