.243 realistic effective max range

The shot the girl made on the 688 yard cow looks to be a Hilar shot to me. What do you guys think??

I first saw this video a few years ago when my cousin in Colorado was jumping up and down about it.

The way the rear legs collapsed first, my immediate thought was it was a spinal impact. I would say she's hit the animal somewhere between the T1 and T6 vertebrae, either directly or just below. Looking as closely as you can at the rather lo res video of the impact, it appears to impact high, in line with, or just in front of, the front line of the foreleg.

The behaviour of the animal on impact is very similar to a typical high shoulder shot, which destroys the brachial plexus and instantly incapacitates the animal. There's a bunch of YouTube videos that demonstrate this on animals from roe to elk.

The hilar zone will cause collapse, but it isn't usually quite as dramatic as that. The autonomic plexus nerves primarily control cardiac and pulmonary functions, but still, if you destroy them, it corrupts the CNS as a whole, and down he/she goes. Any direct spinal interaction causes that very characteristic instantaneous flexing of the rear legs and dropping on the rump as the animal falls.

I shot a red spiker at 140m a couple of weeks ago with a 165gr Speer BTSP, and decimated the autonomic plexus. On impact the animal kind of froze and then simply tipped over sideways, quite slowly, as if it was a statue of a deer being pushed over.

Couple of things about that video.

1. She got away with it. It was a clean kill, but the instructor clearly said 'right behind the shoulder'. I think she hit high, and forward, of where she intended. If she had hit behind and low by the same margin, she would have collected the lower rear lungs behind and/or above the heart, and that animal would have taken off.

2. Therefore, if she had aimed at the hilar zone as per the pictures above, if she was high, low, behind or in front of where she intended, she would have inflicted a deadly blow. With a high probability of quick collapse. The hilar zone gives the shooter a wide area of quick kill zone. This is the problem with a "behind the shoulder shot" at long range, if it goes further behind than intended, the rear lungs or worse the liver will be struck, and the animal will run.

3. The Berger VLD is a very poor bullet for this application. There are several long range tests of the VLD Hunting range in various weights, and what has been proven is that once the bullet has lost ~one third of its muzzle velocity, its expansion can be very poor to almost nil. This shot, at 688yds with a .243 at ~2900fps MV means that bullet was impacting at around 1800-1850fps, which is right on the limit of what will generate any expansion. If that bullet had hit behind the shoulder as planned, and between ribs, it would likely have sailed right through with a pencil wound. They require solid muscle mass open up at medium ranges, let along a 700yd shot. It's an all-round dodgy shot on an animal such as elk in every sense of the word, well beyond .243 capabilities, even with a fast twist barrel. The outfitter should have had his arse kicked.

4. My aforementioned cousins shoot custom barreled 1:8" twist Savage .243s, built specifically for winter coyotes. They used 105gr A-Max before, and now use 108gr ELD-M. Accuracy at 600-700yds is exceptional in typical >>> sub-zero, windless conditions. They flatten coyotes with ease. If you took one of those rifles and pointed it at an elk at that range, you'd likely get a punch in the head.
 
I do wonder sometimes about all this ballistics data when an old hill stalker once told me that at one time many Scottish estate stalkers used to shoot all their red hinds with a .22 Hornet.

F
 
If you took one of those rifles and pointed it at an elk at that range, you'd likely get a punch in the head.

It would be well deserved. So in the end it appears to be just a lucky shot.
 
Or you could just get a Blasa R8 or Winchester XPR which looks like any other hunting rifle?

6.5 Creedmoor is a stunning long range round for paper and would defo be my long range competition choice. And as said a perfectly placed 6.5 round or 243 round will defo kill any UK deer but its terminal energy at 300m is low (338 is 4X higher) and id expect more issues with off target shots than with a 30 06 or 338.

I have shot a few chest shots with 243 (usualy head shoot) and found the blood trail to be poor With a creadmore or 243 at 300m on a red, I would be concerned about tracking the animal so the terrain would impact my decision as would the wind and the angle of shot. With a 30 06 or 338 id be far less concerned over the finer points.

I dot own either and have used 308 for longer range but currently exploring the 6.5 55. At the moment I have had two bad runners with the 6.5 so still more inclined back to the 308. But I am willing to fiddle a bit more with head selection before giving up. Currently on 140g BT Nosla

Sorry, but I couldn't let this one go. Please let me point out that there's nothing personal or antagonistic in this statement, just interested where you get the notion from...

Terminal energy from a CM low at 300m...really? 147gr ELD @MV of 2670fps retains 1742 ft-lb at 300yds (a fraction less than a 168grn ELD from a .308 launched at 2700fps) BUT retains more energy than the .308 when past 300yds due to BC advantage. How in heck is 1742 ft-lb considered "low energy"? Perhaps you were looking at lightweight lower BC bullets Chasey? Otherwise, it's a bit of a sweeping statement to be fair

Dodgy has it right. It's all about shot placement. If I had someone set foot onto my shooting land with a 338 looking to take a 300m shot on deer, trying to justify it on energy, I'd kick them off because it tells me that they probably haven't a clue about ballistics or shot placement and are relying on a "canon to take a sparrow."

@ the OP: Mike, you did the right thing by passing that shot, 100%. Hats off to you for asking the question, which has been well answered by some of the excellent responses given so far. I can only echo what others have suggested, but would add a few other things not gone into in detail. First comes the animal (and its welfare). Start by looking at what bullet will do the job of good penetration and expansion at the maximum range you're likely to come across, and shoot one at (you're probably well aware already). I put a strict limit on myself of 300yds because in field conditions, off sticks, with an animal that's likely to move as the trigger is squeezed, I want to make sure that where I place the shot is where it will land and past 300yds, there's not enough surety for me. I can punch paper at 600m and achieve sub moa (as I did last outing at that distance) with my homeloads, but I wouldn't shoot an animal at that distance. For the record, I regularly shoot long range on paper out to 1000yds or more. People like Dodgyknees have way more experience in the field at extended ranges and due to differences in terrain, they're probably more normal for him than for any of us in the UK.

Once you've chosen a good bullet for the job, practice until you know your drops off-pat. I like to shoot steel at various ranges but only after I've shot paper at fixed distances from 100 to 400 yds and like Dodgy, I calibrate my ballistic app with new data every batch, noting weather so I can get a handle on things like temp sensitivity...more of an issue as the range extends wrt velocity (more for paper than for my deer range). Once you're confident about your drops, and taken a few confident shots at 150yds on deer, you'll soon learn that with good shot placement, you have a high probability of ethical shots past that distance, but only you can determine what is ethical for your quarry, distance and given conditions. That is a general rule that applies to us all. All of us, bar no one knows what they are comfortable with and that sometimes has no bearing on what the rifle (or calibre) is capable of.

Most of my deer are small (Muntjac and Roe) and I have confidently taken Munty at 200 yds on the move (aren't they always?) over ground I'm very familiar with in good conditions (little or no wind) using nothing more than a 223 and #1365 Gamekings (I particularly like those and their 65grn stablemates for small deer). As per Dodgy's advice, I started taking Hilar shots and haven't had a runner yet...all dropped on the spot, and with small deer you lessen the chances of a ruined carcass too (hydraulic action with a .308 on Munty can rupture the stomach or gut sometimes even with engine room shots). On Munty, 200 is about as far as I will go, on Roe with my .308, out to 300 using 150grn Gamekings, again on a good day or occasionally, the 6.5 but mine's a heavy beast.

Practice, practice and more practice is the key, and preferably over your shooting land so you learn the peculiarities, wind effects, dead ground (if not using rangefinders) etc. I used to do this first with fixed paper targets placed at known distances between 70 and 400yds, then when I was confident of my drops (and mpbrs ) I knew that mbpr limits for any given load would impose limits for which I wouldn't need to dial but I dial for everything else as I don't consider hold-over at extended ranges as reliable enough (for me). That sort of speeds up the decision taking process so is a very useful tool. My scopes are all designed with rapid dialling in mind (exposed positive turrets). Following that, I placed a steel gong in areas where I knew deer tracked, and moved myself to areas (pre-planned as part of my stalking plans) where I had a good field of view at various positions to count for changes in wind direction etc, then using a rangefinder (lots of dead ground) worked the ranges out and practised on the steel which was about the same size as the kill zone. I usually ambush shoot munty as I find this the most reliable method (locating deer runs from deer sign and laying in wait, usually early morning). This means that I sometimes have to repeat the exercise for other locations but after a while you can dispense with the exercise once you gain confidence and just check each batch for zero/MV.

Dodgy...how are you getting on with your 6.5 mate? Long time since we last caught up!
 
.Dodgy...how are you getting on with your 6.5 mate? Long time since we last caught up!

Very good thanks, still plugging away at the goats trying to keep them off the manuka and at numbers that don't look like we're farming them, instead of sheep and cattle. Regular tumbling goats at 650-700m now, have stepped it up a bit with improved confidence and better practical understanding of the windage holds. The Lapua brass is on its 6th reload now with no signs of wear and tear other than a very slight shiny ring on the headstamp. The 143gr ELD-X is a stone cold goat killer at those ranges, very effective indeed.

I do look forward to the 90gr ELD-X in 6mm. I emailed my supplier yesterday only to be told delivery has been pushed back to May. Very annoying! I hope that they will be a step up from the trusty ProHunter, though slightly lighter, their BC models significantly improved windage and higher retained energy numbers. Proof will be in the 100m accuracy, then 300m drop tests, then goats, then hopefully deer.
 
Very good thanks, still plugging away at the goats trying to keep them off the manuka and at numbers that don't look like we're farming them, instead of sheep and cattle. Regular tumbling goats at 650-700m now, have stepped it up a bit with improved confidence and better practical understanding of the windage holds. The Lapua brass is on its 6th reload now with no signs of wear and tear other than a very slight shiny ring on the headstamp. The 143gr ELD-X is a stone cold goat killer at those ranges, very effective indeed.

I do look forward to the 90gr ELD-X in 6mm. I emailed my supplier yesterday only to be told delivery has been pushed back to May. Very annoying! I hope that they will be a step up from the trusty ProHunter, though slightly lighter, their BC models significantly improved windage and higher retained energy numbers. Proof will be in the 100m accuracy, then 300m drop tests, then goats, then hopefully deer.

Great stuff. I'm also on my 6th reload from a batch of 200 Lapua 6.5 cases and they look very fresh still...quite impressed in that they haven't shown many signs of growth and only needed one trimming so far. Still haven't got round to trying ELD-X as still have a batch of 140-SSTs to get through, but I suspect at my distances the pro-hunter's a far better choice for less mess than the SSTs at higher MVs. Sorry to the OP for the thread-drift ( a bit like wind drift...in that you have to make allowances! There...got it back on track ;))
 
Rifles don't have effective ranges
Shooters do

A well placed .224 50gr bullet will kill most things on the planet well passed where you can put them reliably
I have pole-axed roe deer with a .222 out past 200m, I have no doubt it would do a similar job at 300
 
That's a tad extreme Chasey.

Just taking a slightly different view, the 6.5 Lapua running 129 ABLR is carrying just short of 1600 ftLb at 300 meters, more than enough energy for any Red stag or anything else on this island. It always exits and always gives a blood trail. The low recoil makes a precise shot much easier with a hunting weight rifle. I think the Creedmoor gives a very similar level of energy. You simply don't need anything bigger unless you are taking shots well beyond 300 meters. It's a completely different proposition to a 243 because of the bullets available.

With the ABLR or ELDX high BC bullets you are carrying energy much further than with traditional hunting bullets which is making the 6.5's and 7's all you need these days. If shooting deer beyond 400 meters I would be stepping up to 7mm, the 280ai is still carrying 1500 ftLb at 600 meters with a 168 ABLR.

Not sure I would be contemplating a 338 Lapua unless I was trying the 1 km shot !!!


I bow to your superior knowledge of the calibre. I have only had 243 and 308 to play with till I got the 6.5 55 September last year and as I say I have had unexpected results with the 6.5 55 so far but its also work in progress.

OK so the 338 lupar is a bit OTT then :D
 
I bow to your superior knowledge of the calibre. I have only had 243 and 308 to play with till I got the 6.5 55 September last year and as I say I have had unexpected results with the 6.5 55 so far but its also work in progress.

OK so the 338 lupar is a bit OTT then :D

What bullets are you using in 6.5 Chasey?
 
Thanks guys for taking the time to comment and share your experiences, it has been most helpful, some slightly conflicting opinions but that was to be expected, and all equally valid.

from what I have read and googled it has helped me towards some conclusions allowing for the way I shoot and my thought on welfare, at this stage I am thinking that I will be experimenting with the Hilar shot placement, and work my way out to a max of around 200 yards with the .243 and maybe a little further with my .308 but keeping shots to shorter than the max numbers I have decided upon initially and seeing what kind of reaction I get to the shots taken and having a look at what the bullets do when butchering and amend my thoughts as I go along.

I will most definitely be doing more practicing although I am a reasonable shot with reasonable gear and only take shots when I'm totally happy and 100% steady with my rifle support, maybe that is why in part., but with any sport you can't practice too much

as the only place I have to zero and develop loads is on the ground where I stalk and that I have run out of .308 loads I have been reluctant to do too much while the reds are still in and risk scaring them off my land, but after the end of april I will be on it, I have bought a box of 165gn partitions to try this time around, if I can't get them to shoot how I want I will go back to the 165gn Speer soft points that do shoot well through my rifle.

a lot to do between now and June 16th when the river season opens again

thanks again fellas

regards Mike
 
I'd be wary of shooting in a situation where a specific shot was required to do the job. I'm not a fan of this shot as it's easy to wander into the fillets with attendant value issues.

My experience with 243 is that with good bullets, good placement and reasonable ranges it works very well.
I've not shot it on reds at that range, I have on fallow and it works well but death runs are definately a bit longer
 
@1894's point is the classic "meat saver" concern. And it goes without saying that is a totally valid viewpoint.

Two aspects to consider here. The aimpoint of the hilar zone would not affect the backstrap fillets unless the bullet struck high. The aimpoint for the high shoulder shot has a 50/50 chance of interaction with the front most portion of the fillets, in my experience, typically the offside fillet from bullet fragments or bruising.

Hilar and high shoulder are two different points of aim, and two different mechanisms of CNS paralysis. Just thought I'd emphasise that again.

Capture.webp

With the assumption that I can control point of impact (wind conditions, rest, animal position, animal movement) I back myself to put a 100gr 6mm bullet into either of those very quick killing shot positions from anything up to around 300m, sometimes a bit further.

The emphasis on drops earlier in the thread is a critical component of any longer shot, this we know as simple common sense. However I am reminded that too often, guys shooting factory ammunition on an occasional basis might not test their drops or longer range accuracy as much as hand loaders. Sometimes not at all. A 100m range zero check isn't good enough, you have to validate your trajectory at the ranges you expect to shoot, or might shoot in an unexpected situation.

I say this because this is exactly the mistake I made the other day. Except it was with hand loads!

I shot a red stag at 245m with my .308 and a new 165gr Speer BTSP load. It instantly collapsed. When I reached it, I saw I had hit it high, straight through the high shoulder. But that wasn't where I was aiming, I was aiming at the hilar point of impact. Reason it was so high is that my chrono must have had a bad day when I did load development, and been reading well low. Plus I hadn't corrected for altitude. And plus I had used a lower BC number for the bullet as I didn't believe the published number. So after sorting out the animal, I went that afternoon and did a 300m drop test - which I should have done before I went hunting - I got a surprise when the trajectory validation corrected velocity by over 150fps. Wow. Subsequently, with the corrected ballistics, I used that rifle on goats out to 400m with no issues.

Now imagine if that was the other way round. Which is often the case with factory ammunition - published numbers are usually quite a bit higher than what shooters actually get.

So hitting low with factory ammo happens a fair bit at longer ranges, when drop tests haven't confirmed trajectory. And low hits (brisket typically, or foreleg) means lost deer.
 
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Of course, thank you. How silly of me not to know that. That would be in .243 of course.
@1894's point is the classic "meat saver" concern. And it goes without saying that is a totally valid viewpoint.

Two aspects to consider here. The aimpoint of the hilar zone would not affect the backstrap fillets unless the bullet struck high. The aimpoint for the high shoulder shot has a 50/50 chance of interaction with the front most portion of the fillets, in my experience, typically the offside fillet from bullet fragments or bruising.

Hilar and high shoulder are two different points of aim, and two different mechanisms of CNS paralysis. Just thought I'd emphasise that again.

View attachment 125075

With the assumption that I can control point of impact (wind conditions, rest, animal position, animal movement) I back myself to put a 100gr 6mm bullet into either of those very quick killing shot positions from anything up to around 300m, sometimes a bit further.

The emphasis on drops earlier in the thread is a critical component of any longer shot, this we know as simple common sense. However I am reminded that too often, guys shooting factory ammunition on an occasional basis might not test their drops or longer range accuracy as much as hand loaders. Sometimes not at all. A 100m range zero check isn't good enough, you have to validate your trajectory at the ranges you expect to shoot, or might shoot in an unexpected situation.

I say this because this is exactly the mistake I made the other day. Except it was with hand loads!

I shot a red stag at 245m with my .308 and a new 165gr Speer BTSP load. It instantly collapsed. When I reached it, I saw I had hit it high, straight through the high shoulder. But that wasn't where I was aiming, I was aiming at the hilar point of impact. Reason it was so high is that my chrono must have had a bad day when I did load development, and been reading well low. Plus I hadn't corrected for altitude. And plus I had used a lower BC number for the bullet as I didn't believe the published number. So after sorting out the animal, I went that afternoon and did a 300m drop test - which I should have done before I went hunting - I got a surprise when the trajectory validation corrected velocity by over 150fps. Wow. Subsequently, with the corrected ballistics, I used that rifle on goats out to 400m with no issues.

Now imagine if that was the other way round. Which is often the case with factory ammunition - published numbers are usually quite a bit higher than what shooters actually get.

So hitting low with factory ammo happens a fair bit at longer ranges, when drop tests haven't confirmed trajectory. And low hits (brisket typically, or foreleg) means lost deer.
so a warning if the low neck/shoulder shot. If you hit the spine at T1 level the animal will drop but will still breath. C3/4/5 (high neck) supplies the diaphragm. I have hit a fallow low neck who was still alive when I got there and needed a follow up shot. FWIW I would shoot lower and backwards aiming for the boiler house.
 
so a warning if the low neck/shoulder shot. If you hit the spine at T1 level the animal will drop but will still breath. C3/4/5 (high neck) supplies the diaphragm. I have hit a fallow low neck who was still alive when I got there and needed a follow up shot. FWIW I would shoot lower and backwards aiming for the boiler house.

I can vouch for this, happened to me on the hill last year, 310 yard shot on a very decent red stag (.270 WSM, 130gr NBT), not usually shooting out that far but that’s the way it went on the day. The beast went down like a sack of potatoes but was very much alive when we got to it. High shoulder shot in the T1 area. Antlers were well wedged into the ground so we just bleed it out at the base of the neck.
 
You'll get a lot of different answers, as you will have noticed. Honestly mate, your best option is to work it out yourself by proving your own field accuracy, and then shooting a couple of animals and seeing what happens. In that order. There are too many variables to give a definitive range. Position of the animal, wind, the type of rest, time available to setup the shot. Guys fail at 150m and that casts their opinion in granite for evermore, they blame the cartridge when it was them that put the bullet in the wrong place. Other guys shoot red stags in the neck with .243s at whatever range all their lives... so take your pick from the range of answers that lie in between!

Too much antagonism tends to result from this kind of discussion, much of it driven by blokes like me pushing back on overly conservative people who I reckon might not actually do much hunting at all.
My opinion it is more the person's ability than the equipment. You need to practice and find your own comfort zone...e.g. a mate of mine was a reasonable shot at 100 yards but totally rubbish at 200 yards.
 
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