Soft point expansion

[G4ZZ]

I’ve recently bought myself a Tikka varmint stainless .222
The only rounds I’ve been able to try as of yet are Norma 40grn Vmax and federal power shock 50grn soft points, Federal soft points were the best grouping round so I’ve stuck with them.
I was out on the foxes a few nights ago and shot a fox but it didn’t drop on the spot as expected and ran a few yards I know it can happen.
On inspection where the fox was sat when shot there was blood on the floor and also a line then impact point in the back stop/grass proving the round had pencilled straight through the fox and hadn’t expanded, I was shooting from an elevated position at a little over 100 yards with the shot hitting the fox in the chest.
Is this a one off or has anyone else had similar happen with soft point bullets.

 

[User00003]

That’s very surprising. Shot a lot of foxes and roe with 222 soft pints from Sako, fed and Norma, all performed flawlessly in on both fox and roe

I wouldn’t worry

 

[Millerich]

Was the grouping terrible with the Norma’s? I only ask as I’ve been impressed with them on foxes in my .223. I can’t help with experience on the 50g soft point Federal’s I’m afraid.

 

[VSS]

I had a 130grn soft point 270 bullet pencil straight through a fallow pricket at about 200 metres. It actually went right through the lungs, but because the hole was so small the animal ran pretty strongly without much blood loss. I re-stalked it and got it with a second shot. The second shot I placed high through the shoulders because my main concern at this point was just getting the injured yet mobile animal down on the deck. Therefore, my second shot didn't mess up the evidence of what had gone wrong with the first shot, so I could clearly see what happened.

 

[G4ZZ]

Was the grouping terrible with the Norma’s? I only ask as I’ve been impressed with them on foxes in my .223. I can’t help with experience on the 50g soft point Federal’s I’m afraid.

The groups weren’t terrible with their he Norma vmax just better with the federal soft point.
I use Norma 75grn vmax in my .243 and they are faultless.

 

[Tulloch]

Foxes are soft , the speed of the .222 makes the bullet pass right through , the same happens with softpoints through the .243 . it is a common issue with the harder bullets on softer animals ., Ballistic tips that fly faster do not always expand on time either although they do work better. If using softpoint bullets on foxes you need to head shot or make sure your hitting bone .

I had an issue where a fox ran into me to about 25yrds with the .243 , I put one in it and it bounced about for a couple of minutes then ran off , I found it the next day in the next field 3 to 400 yrds away from where I shot it , The bullet must have missed all its internals and went straight through.

There is a case for using slower rounds on softer targets.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Foxes are soft , the speed of the .222 makes the bullet pass right through , the same happens with softpoints through the .243 . it is a common issue with the harder bullets on softer animals ., Ballistic tips that fly faster do not always expand on time either although they do work better. If using softpoint bullets on foxes you need to head shot or make sure your hitting bone .

I had an issue where a fox ran into me to about 25yrds with the .243 , I put one in it and it bounced about for a couple of minutes then ran off , I found it the next day in the next field 3 to 400 yrds away from where I shot it , The bullet must have missed all its internals and went straight through.

There is a case for using slower rounds on softer targets.

I’m sorry but I don’t agree with this at all. The faster the velocity of the bullet the more it is going to expand inside a given target.

 

[needsy]

Personally I always use ballistic tips to shoot foxes,as they are designed for rapid expansion on varmints/small game

 

[cjs66]

I use Sierra 55g soft points, no 1365. Now I don't know if these will be any good in a 222 but, through my 22-250 they are mustard! They are my go-to roe round with 36g N140, travelling about 3550- 3600fps. They drop roe well with minimal damage, as long as the shots in the right place. I've used these on smaller quarry, the odd opportunist fox and on a few hares and I find they do more damage than the bullet I would normally use for these. That would be a Nosler 50g B/T, at 3800+. You would have thought that the B/T would have been more explosive on the smaller animal but, this isn't my finding...

cjs

 

[tom308w]

I use Sierra 55g soft points, no 1365. Now I don't know if these will be any good in a 222 but, through my 22-250 they are mustard! They are my go-to roe round with 36g N140, travelling about 3550- 3600fps. They drop roe well with minimal damage, as long as the shots in the right place. I've used these on smaller quarry, the odd opportunist fox and on a few hares and I find they do more damage than the bullet I would normally use for these. That would be a Nosler 50g B/T, at 3800+. You would have thought that the B/T would have been more explosive on the smaller animal but, this isn't my finding...

cjs

legal round in Scotland for roe but not England. just for anyone who is unsure of the law

 

[User00033]

Did you recover the fox? That should tell you all you need to know, wrt whether you hit it right or not. I wouldn't be in a hurry to change anything based on one fox.

 

[cjs66]

legal round in Scotland for roe but not England. just for anyone who is unsure of the law

Yes Tom, absolutely.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that.

cjs

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Another thing to take into consideration is the fact that the material that the tip is made of has little to do with how frangiable the bullet is. You can get plastic tips wich mushroom and retain most of their weight, and you can get soft points that fully fragment almost instantly, and obviously vice versa. People have a misconception about soft points because they think of the classic mushrooming deer bullet.

 

[Miki]

I think the bullet did what it was supposed to do. The bullet choice for a fox should be a Varmint which are designed for rapid expansion or Blitz' bullets, which are designed for explosive expansion below 3600fps
They make soup of the internals. Soft point (game) bullets have a more controlled (read slower) expansion for medium game applications. Frangible/rapid expansion is what you should be using, both 'styles' will prove fatal if the shot is placed correctly but Varmint/Blitz are more forgiving if the desired result is to destroy.

<Sierra Bullets link>

 

[Toddy222]

I’ve recently bought myself a Tikka varmint stainless .222
The only rounds I’ve been able to try as of yet are Norma 40grn Vmax and federal power shock 50grn soft points, Federal soft points were the best grouping round so I’ve stuck with them.
I was out on the foxes a few nights ago and shot a fox but it didn’t drop on the spot as expected and ran a few yards I know it can happen.
On inspection where the fox was sat when shot there was blood on the floor and also a line then impact point in the back stop/grass proving the round had pencilled straight through the fox and hadn’t expanded, I was shooting from an elevated position at a little over 100 yards with the shot hitting the fox in the chest.
Is this a one off or has anyone else had similar happen with soft point bullets.

I had that with 50gr ppu they group REALLY well in my 222 i also found federal factory tight to chamber and had a case split so now using 40gr home loads to good effect
Toddy

 

[Tulloch]

I’m sorry but I don’t agree with this at all. The faster the velocity of the bullet the more it is going to expand inside a given target.

That is all dependent on the bullet .

Soft points are not like ballistic tipped bullets , softpoints have a slow expabsion mushroom where a ballastic tip has a controlled break up and mushroom creating more of shock cavity.

If a softpoint is flying over 3000fps at shorter ranges specially on a bullet that has a low ballistic coefficiency then the round will pass through before it gets a chance to expand fully and on softer animals such as foxes and say hares the wound will just burn right through.

I have done extensive bullet testing and taking lots of advice from pro shooters over the last few years .
I have witnessed this very thing with both the .270 and .243 shooting foxes broadside missing ribs and fox running on for a goid distance then finding it 2 or 300 yrds away the next day in fact I would believe that this is the main reason for run ons from foxed in may occassions albeit found and clearly shot.

The first time this happened to me as I said was on a 25yrd fox and I had it on video and sent it to a few pro shooters and they all said the same that the bullet passed through without expanding.

Noone ever knows what a bullet will do after that primer is struck by the pin anyone who says they do has not shot much am afraid. Yes you can limit its optuons and be as safe as you possibly ever can but it dont take much for bullets not to perform how they should .

I have seen deer shot twice with the same bullet, not me but my boss done it and witnessed and it was the strangest thing I have ever seen . I have also seen SST 130gr splash on a shoulder of a red stag without penetrating .

Bullets do wonderful things

 

[Longstrider]

A 'chest' shot on a fox could be anywhere between the neck and the belly ... Hit one a little too far back from the shoulder and you'll still kill it, although sometimes a little slower than you might like. The bullet can easily exit the far side having passed through little or no more than a couple of layers of skin and a lung or two (assuming it can pass between the ribs). Lungs are very soft (and often full of air) so offer little in the way of resistance that will cause a bullet to expand.
I like to hit mine within an inch of the shoulder where the bullet is more likely to encounter a bit of bone and where the animal is a bit more 'solid'. Combine that with a 32grain ballistic tip .20cal bullet at nigh-on 4000fps and very few of them ever move again except via gravity.
Having said that I did have a 'dancer' last night, although how the hell it managed it I will never know. A 140 yarder with an entry wound right in the centre of the bib when it was facing me, and a damned great hole in its lower back where what was left of the bullet exited. It danced and rolled for 7 or 8 seconds before it fell still. 8 seconds is about 7 and 9/10 secs longer than they usually take to become stationary from a shot like that.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

That is all dependent on the bullet .

Soft points are not like ballistic tipped bullets , softpoints have a slow expabsion mushroom where a ballastic tip has a controlled break up and mushroom creating more of shock cavity.

If a softpoint is flying over 3000fps at shorter ranges specially on a bullet that has a low ballistic coefficiency then the round will pass through before it gets a chance to expand fully and on softer animals such as foxes and say hares the wound will just burn right through.

I have done extensive bullet testing and taking lots of advice from pro shooters over the last few years .
I have witnessed this very thing with both the .270 and .243 shooting foxes broadside missing ribs and fox running on for a goid distance then finding it 2 or 300 yrds away the next day in fact I would believe that this is the main reason for run ons from foxed in may occassions albeit found and clearly shot.

The first time this happened to me as I said was on a 25yrd fox and I had it on video and sent it to a few pro shooters and they all said the same that the bullet passed through without expanding.

Noone ever knows what a bullet will do after that primer is struck by the pin anyone who says they do has not shot much am afraid. Yes you can limit its optuons and be as safe as you possibly ever can but it dont take much for bullets not to perform how they should .

I have seen deer shot twice with the same bullet, not me but my boss done it and witnessed and it was the strangest thing I have ever seen . I have also seen SST 130gr splash on a shoulder of a red stag without penetrating .

Bullets do wonderful things

I fully agree that bullets can do weird and funny things but just can’t agree that non expansion can be down to pushing soft points too fast although fully accept that opinions can vary. I too have worked extensively around professionals, non of whome have ever believed your theory. As a side note what do you think of Nathan fosters work?

 

[takbok]

More speed. More expansion.

 

[User00003]

Usually more velocity means more expansion, however! There is a point where a bullet can travel so fast, OR slow, that if hitting soft tissue, it WILL fail to expand. That is pretty common knowledge and why you don’t shoot intonsoft tissue/rear lung under 50yds and over 250yds give it take