Can Large wild cats be shot AOLQ

[karlbird]

I always worry about FAC holders who take advice from Karen on Facebook. I’ve always rather asked my FLM/FEO if I have had a question about what I can and cannot do with my guns....

 

[pendle]

I am not taking advise . Just looking it up on the internet it states in the quide lines AOLQ feral cats . Is a puma classed as feral cat .
As its kept under a dangerous animal license .

Just curiosity is killing this cat

 

[andyk]

Just curiosity is killing this cat

Or not, if you listen to us lot!

 

[JMH123]

There will, I suspect, be no legal precedent regarding private individuals shooting ‘feral’ big cat species in the UK. There is zero chance your firearms officer can give you a definitive answer- there isn’t one to give. It will obviously never be explicitly listed on a FAC, but may arguably be implicit on an open ticket. There is no defined position.
In reality, if you have an open ticket, do what you think is right and you feel comfortable with- that is your own responsibility. But do so quietly.....this approach probably isn’t a good start.

 

[Oldstalker]

Off (immediate) Topic.
I had wording in Cumbria that was very similar to @Chris J [post #8 above] on my FAC's whilst in that county. I did not have the one about "protection of other animals or humans" but it was useful in allowing me to make myself useful to the farmers.Under the "estate management purposes" one could justify shooting large cats very easily. "Lawful quarry" implies to me that it must be on either a quarry list, or a vermin list and that if is not on either of those then it is not lawful. This is where our modern legislators and interpreters of that legislation fail us. It always used to be a principle of British laws that it was not unlawful unless banned by law in contrast to Germany where it was not permitted to do anything unless expressly permitted and allowed within the law. This ever tightening definition does not serve us well in the countryside; it may do so to prevent some fraud and less scrupulous practices in the City but it does NOT make for good law in the countryside. I have shot a number of cattle and sleepover the years including 2 dangerous cattle. One was a very irate Friesian bull and the other a heifer who had simply gone doo-lally (many years post BSE) and attacked people. I was also asked by a local wildlife park if I would be prepared to shoot their snow leopards if they escaped. [I said I was but that I would be very unsure of finding such a naturally elusive animal(s)!] The time for action is there and then to prevent further damage (or suffering if for humane dispatch). The only saving grace these days is that the chances of enforcement are nearly nil unless someone puts it on social media!

 

[mr smith]

My FAC used to carry this wording. Just looked at my current version that section has gone. I've got the whole lawful quarry thing now, but this older version is interesting. It was a common clause back then but MUST be read with the rest of the FAC. But clearly the idea of shooting animals for protection was a concept that had not gone unnoticed. Numerous people I met thought that they had deer on their ticket because of clause (a). They did not. But some wouldn't listen of course. This only applied to the ammunition. Now what I never considered was that I might have needed a clause in relation to the firearms that said I was allowed to shoot animals for the protection of other animals. As the question never arose I never asked. Frankly given the chance, I'd leave it. I could do without the media s*** storm that would go with it. Lawful or not!

View attachment 189969

That was the condition that allowed you to have expanding ammunition, you don't need it anymore since it was taken off of section 5.

 

[njc110381]

Going by the experience of a well known chap in the shooting community, I think the best way to approach subjects like this is to keep quiet. If you do see one and it needs to be shot, crack on. Get it done, get it gone, pretend it never happened!

 

[finnbear270]

I certainly would not dispatch said cat, Unless I deemed it to be approaching me in a purposeful manner.

 

[bowji john]

All zoos and wild life parks are required to at least have a plan for escaped animals.

Very often this is in the form of a firearms team drawn from FAC holding employees, and an EAP which includes liaising / working with the emergency services

Justification for shooting is for the purposes of protecting lives

Until the lurgy hit we were running a 5 day course for parks and zoos developed to meet the need first encountered when I was group safety advisor at Longleat

 

[starr shot]

All zoos and wild life parks are required to at least have a plan for escaped animals.

Very often this is in the form of a firearms team drawn from FAC holding employees, and an EAP which includes liaising / working with the emergency services

Justification for shooting is for the purposes of protecting lives

Until the lurgy hit we were running a 5 day course for parks and zoos developed to meet the need first encountered when I was group safety advisor at Longleat

Couple of years ago we demolished a building on the outskirts of Trowbridge including an underground bunker.One of the walls had a blackboard on it with a whole list of instructions on how deal with any animals that had escaped from longleat.

 

[bowji john]

Couple of years ago we demolished a building on the outskirts of Trowbridge including an underground bunker.One of the walls had a blackboard on it with a whole list of instructions on how deal with any animals that had escaped from longleat.

Pity you didn’t take a pic of what was written - I’d love to have seen that

 

[Rhodesianjess]

I'm not sure how long ago it was but a keeper shot a lynx, Norfolk way if memory serves. Remember seeing the picture of it, rifle laid alongside the dead animal. Don't remember repurcussions resulting from it.

 

[starr shot]

Pity you didn’t take a pic of what was written - I’d love to have seen that

I’m sure I have somewhere on the I phone I’ll see if I can find it.

 

[bowji john]

That would be terrific - many thanks

j

 

[bluesako]

i just sent this thread to my friend in montana, and he said if you do see a cougar or any other big cat dont mess with it, get the fec out of dodge city, he said even he doesnt mess with them, and he knows what he,s on about. bs.

 

[SimpleSimon]

My FAC used to carry this wording. Just looked at my current version that section has gone. I've got the whole lawful quarry thing now, but this older version is interesting. It was a common clause back then but MUST be read with the rest of the FAC. But clearly the idea of shooting animals for protection was a concept that had not gone unnoticed. Numerous people I met thought that they had deer on their ticket because of clause (a). They did not. But some wouldn't listen of course. This only applied to the ammunition. Now what I never considered was that I might have needed a clause in relation to the firearms that said I was allowed to shoot animals for the protection of other animals. As the question never arose I never asked. Frankly given the chance, I'd leave it. I could do without the media s*** storm that would go with it. Lawful or not!

View attachment 189969

I had very similar language on mine at one point, but then as you say, most moved over to AOLQ or ALQ.

As the OP rightly stated, this wording was applicable to ammunition ONLY and you had to abide by the rest of your conditions for the firearms. I remember many, many threads where people would cite that condition as allowing them to do X, Y, Z when in fact it didn't.

The reason you don't get it on certificates any more isn't because of AOLQ, it's because expanding ammunition is no longer on section 5.

 

[25 Sharps]

I had very similar language on mine at one point, but then as you say, most moved over to AOLQ or ALQ.

And expanding ammo came off section 5 so didn’t need its own condition

 

[25 Sharps]

There will, I suspect, be no legal precedent regarding private individuals shooting ‘feral’ big cat species in the UK. There is zero chance your firearms officer can give you a definitive answer- there isn’t one to give. It will obviously never be explicitly listed on a FAC, but may arguably be implicit on an open ticket. There is no defined position.
In reality, if you have an open ticket, do what you think is right and you feel comfortable with- that is your own responsibility. But do so quietly.....this approach probably isn’t a good start.

What on earth has it got to do with an open ticket, which simply deals with whether you are allowed to shoot over uncleared land or not? Absolutely nothing to do with quarry species

 

[25 Sharps]

Off (immediate) Topic.
I had wording in Cumbria that was very similar to @Chris J [post #8 above] on my FAC's whilst in that county. I did not have the one about "protection of other animals or humans" but it was useful in allowing me to make myself useful to the farmers.Under the "estate management purposes" one could justify shooting large cats very easily. "Lawful quarry" implies to me that it must be on either a quarry list, or a vermin list and that if is not on either of those then it is not lawful. This is where our modern legislators and interpreters of that legislation fail us. It always used to be a principle of British laws that it was not unlawful unless banned by law in contrast to Germany where it was not permitted to do anything unless expressly permitted and allowed within the law. This ever tightening definition does not serve us well in the countryside; it may do so to prevent some fraud and less scrupulous practices in the City but it does NOT make for good law in the countryside. I have shot a number of cattle and sleepover the years including 2 dangerous cattle. One was a very irate Friesian bull and the other a heifer who had simply gone doo-lally (many years post BSE) and attacked people. I was also asked by a local wildlife park if I would be prepared to shoot their snow leopards if they escaped. [I said I was but that I would be very unsure of finding such a naturally elusive animal(s)!] The time for action is there and then to prevent further damage (or suffering if for humane dispatch). The only saving grace these days is that the chances of enforcement are nearly nil unless someone puts it on social media!

I often see references to ‘the quarry list’ does this actually exist as a legal document or is it a thing of shooting folk lore?

 

[paul o']

They make nice rugs.

Or Head and tail em they make good hand muffs we used to get 3d up to 6d per cat from the church as kids .