Changing licence calibre(s) between application and interview / grant

[Smithyithy]

Recently received my GP form, so will be looking to get my FAC application in soon - reason being, the approximate grant time for FACs under my force is roughly the same as the time remaining on my SGC, so I'm hoping to convert to coterminous.

Because of the long grant time (~18 months!), I'd like to get the application in now, giving me ample time for rifle practice, DSC / PDS, and some guided stalks, so I hopefully have all the boxes ticked come interview time.

One sticking point is the requirement to state calibres on the application.. Is it possible / practical (or even advisable), to make a 'best estimate' of required calibre(s) on the application, but to have the option to change these at interview (I understand the application can't be 'amended' once it's submitted, so the interview would be the earliest actual opportunity?)

In an ideal scenario I suppose I would shoot a few calibres, find my preference and what I enjoy shooting, and weigh up the practicalities of which species I'll be shooting and to what extent, but I probably won't have those answers for a while due to fitting those things in around work, life and budget.

What are people's experiences with this? It seems it's not out of the ordinary for calibres on the application to be discussed with the FEO, so would it be reasonable to put down roughly what I think I'll want, and then potentially at interview say "actually, I put .308 based on initial advice from stalking friends, but having shot a few rifles and considering the species most accessible to me, I'd like to have 6.5 PRC on there instead" (hypothetical calibres).

For reference, my current logical choices would be:

• .22 LR - Mainly for targets / plinking. I'm a member of a local game shoot with farmland access, we have a few locations where we plink as a few other members have .22 LR's, and a local-ish clay ground also has a dedicated target range for it.
• .223 Rem - Small deer species.
• .308 - Large deer species.

I do like (on paper) having the option of two deer calibres. I've really no idea what I'll be shooting most often, I know we have Roe locally and some friends of friends do shoot locally, but in my mind I'll more than likely be picking stalking opportunities from places like this forum, to get experience of different locations, species, geography, topography etc. Rather than, say, managing a specific species in a set location. And from reading on here I realise many shoot with one calibre and I may find I end up doing so too... I just feel that putting down for a smaller and larger calibre gives a bit more flexibility perhaps..

 

[VSS]

Yes, you will have the opportunity to review your calibre choice(s) during discussion with your FEO, and ammend if appropriate.

 

[Heym SR20]

When I got my first FAC in the last century I put down 7mm. When. I got my new FAC I searched long and hard for left handed 7x57. Could find one anywhere. I did go up to Roberts abd Sons in London. They had a Ruger No 1 in 7x57. I had a good look at it, but they are pretty crude - the look pretty. Mr Roberts did rather agree and talked me put of buying it. He pulled out a Heym SR20 243 left handed. Fitted me well. Quick variation no questions asked and it was in my hot little hand. 3 hours ago that same rifle took its latest deer, about 29 years after I first bought it.

 

[Liveonce]

unless a member of a home office approved club i doubt they will grant your .22lr for target shooting and plinking is not recognised as justification. I would say the .22lr is for pest control at the game shoot and farmland. I expect they will want to see written permission to shoot over the land.

 

[rocketdogbert]

Yes, Essex routinely ask at interview about ammo amounts and calibres, and are more than happy to amend/add as necessary.

Trying to get them to reduce your ammo count is another matter

 

[MAH]

Because of the long grant time (~18 months!), I'd like to get the application in now,

Good morning.
I can't comment on the change of cal question, but a few thoughts come to mind..

1. I believe doctors certificates are only valid for six months, which might be tricky if your force is taking 18m

2. Are you really planning to shoot Roe, in Shropshire with a 223?

3. Justifying "Good reason" for each calibre is key. Plnking is not one. Whilst some ranges do offer play and play range time, that casual arrangement will not be sufficient for your application.
For a 22lr, you'll need a club membership, or written permission form a farmer for vermin control.
For deer calibres you will need, as a minimum, 1 or 2 booked stalks, or your own ground.

4.. You only get one chance at a 1st impression!
Obviously I don't know you, but my feedback on your post is that it gives the impression that you not sure what you intentions are, therefore that’s not the best foundation for a confident justification of your reason for the application.

5. If you've not already done so, reading the Firearms licensing guidelines would help you prepare for completing the application and the interview.

My advice is to take a paid stalk ASAP, using the estate rifle. Get to a point where you a confident about your requirements.

Hope that helps.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Short answer is yes, you can change your mind at the FEO visit and they're unlikely to quibble if you're asking for broadly similar stuff. That said, the FEO will expect you to articulate why you've asked for each one, so you might look a bit daft if you say "actually I've changed my mind now"

Remember a one-for-one variation after your grant is free of charge, whereas to add a new item costs you money. So maybe give yourself a few options, and bank on doing a variation if/when the time comes?

And buy a bigger cabinet than you expect to need

 

[Donkey Basher]

Grant of an FAC is based on you demonstrating ‘good reason’ for each & every firearm. Please don’t take offence as this is meant to be constructive & help you, but from what you have written it sounds very much to me as if you will struggle to demonstrate ‘good reason’ - the very fact you’re asking about changing calibres suggests you don’t really know what you want, which in turn suggests that you don’t really have good reason, if you understand what I’m saying.

Suggest that you do a search for the home office firearms guidance online & have a quiet read over a cuppa.

As others have said to get target shooting for any rifle you’ll need to be a member of a home office approved club - that’s your ‘good reason’ & to get quarry shooting (vermin or deer), you’ll need either to have confirmed bookings or a written permission to use whatever rifles you apply for on a suitable piece of land.

Personally I’d stick with the 3 you’ve listed but would change the 223 to fox & AOLQ, the 308 to deer & AOLQ & the 22LR to vermin. You’ve mentioned ‘plinking’ on a farm so suggest you make sure that you get ‘zero & practice’ included if you go for quarry shooting as your good reason - but don’t mention plonking to the FEO…

Hope this helps you.

 

[Smithyithy]

Thank you for the replies so far gents!

I'll try to answer the responses in order..

1. I heard similar, but I believe that's the period in which you have to submit the application while the GP letter is still valid.. My SGC took ~10 months with our previous force and there was no mention of the GP proforma expiring once submitted with the application.

2. Not Roe, no. My thinking is that I'd like to shoot all species. That may change once I have a range of stalks under my belt, but similar to game shooting, I enjoy the variety rather than quantity. Eg. I'd rather do 6 stalks per year - 1 of each species, than 10 stalks of a single species, for example. Again, I'm not speaking from actual experience yet, but that's what has drawn my interest into stalking. As you probably know there's so much information and opinions on calibres that it's quite overwhelming to a beginner.. Maybe .223 wasn't the right choice (and again, this is partly why I wasn't sure about changing once getting some experience), but personally I feel that I'd want a calibre suitable for at least Muntjac and CWD that isn't 'overly' powerful., as my intention isn't simply to kill the animal by any means necessary.. I'm sure there's a fine line between underkill and overkill, but I'm here to learn

3. Interesting re. the .22 LR, all I would really want it for is recreational target shooting. The chaps on my shoot would have land permission from the farmer, so I assume in that case it would state 'vermin and pest control', although I don't have much intention to undertake pest control unless I was specifically offered / requested to take part.. But either way we have the farmland as an option, my friend's father also owns private woodland nearby where he shoots his own .22, and I know he does a lot of pest control there as he keeps livestock, I'm fairly sure he'd be happy for me to shoot there. It's really just the fact that I'd have to state 'pest / vermin control' with the relevant locations, but in reality, 90% of the time I'd be shooting targets, rather than rats / foxes...

4. Completely agree re. the impression. And the other point is really what I'm trying to nail down. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, in that I won't know for absolute sure what and where I'll be shooting without getting a good amount of experience under my belt. I've even ruled a couple of things out based on personal views or practicalities, but the choices I put above (and the deer calibres are of course flexible and open to advice and suggestions)..

• FAC Air Rifle - couple of friends have them, and suggested I get one for rabbits, squirrels etc. I honestly don't have enough interest in shooting pests or similar quarry to warrant one. I have a couple of springers I use for plinking and that's enough for me, so no justification.
• Section 1 Shotgun - another suggestion from a friend who shoots practical shotgun and tried to sell me on the sport. At this stage I have no interest in PSG, more than happy clays and our own game shoot.
• .22 LR - as above, and with full transparency, I want one for target shooting, moreso than pests or vermin. If I was asked to shoot pests, I wouldn't be opposed to it, and I do / will have land permission to do so. But whenever I've shot friend's guns, it's been their bolt-action guns, off a bonnet, at a set of targets we've put up on the farmland. I find the guns more interesting too, as an aside. For shotguns I'm a bit more traditional and prefer nice woodwork and classic engraving, but there's some really interesting (and not too expensive, relatively speaking) LR's available.
• Small deer calibre - as above, I would want to be able to shoot at least Muntjac and CWD without obliterating them, that's my main concern. I appreciate the animal has to be dispatched effectively, but I'm not of the mindset to kill it by any means necessary, similarly to when I witnessed (on a guest day) someone take out a small pheasant with something like a 36g 4 shot. Completely unnecessary and left little of the bird in tact afterwards
• Large deer calibre - something capable of effectively killing the larger species. I listed .308 initially as my research suggests it's very versatile in loads so can cover a wide range. a bit of a bucket list item would be a Red deer stalk up in the Highlands - I've watched a few films on YouTube of these stalks and they look incredible. I suppose similar to Grouse shooting, it's not (at least for a mere mortal) something I'd be doing every other weekend due to cost and practicality, but once or twice here and there.

ETA: Donkey Basher - saw your reply after I'd posted this reply - thank you as well and no offence taken at all - I'm here to learn and appreciate all constructive advice

 

[SimpleSimon]

• Small deer calibre - as above, I would want to be able to shoot at least Muntjac and CWD without obliterating them, that's my main concern. I appreciate the animal has to be dispatched effectively, but I'm not of the mindset to kill it by any means necessary, similarly to when I witnessed (on a guest day) someone take out a small pheasant with something like a 36g 4 shot. Completely unnecessary and left little of the bird in tact afterwards

You might be surprised how much damage a small, fast bullet will do to a little deer compared to a larger but slower one.

 

[Liveonce]

re
3. Interesting re. the .22 LR, all I would really want it for is recreational target shooting. The chaps on my shoot would have land permission from the farmer, so I assume in that case it would state 'vermin and pest control', although I don't have much intention to undertake pest control unless I was specifically offered / requested to take part.. But either way we have the farmland as an option, my friend's father also owns private woodland nearby where he shoots his own .22, and I know he does a lot of pest control there as he keeps livestock, I'm fairly sure he'd be happy for me to shoot there. It's really just the fact that I'd have to state 'pest / vermin control' with the relevant locations, but in reality, 90% of the time I'd be shooting targets, rather than rats / foxes...

sounds like the chaps on the shoot have the .22lr for vermin which would also be conditioned for zeroing and likely practice. I say likely practice as Kent look to renewing with just zeroing.

If you just specify target and are not a member of a home office approved club you will likely not get it granted and if was granted only for use at a home office approved club you could not use it for vermin or with the chaps at the shoot.
Each firearm is conditioned for how it may be used and where.

 

[Donkey Basher]

You might be surprised how much damage a small, fast bullet will do to a little deer compared to a larger but slower one.

This ^^^^

I ditched my 243 in favour of a 308 as the 243 was causing more damage to carcasses than my 308 was.

Again, not wanting to cause offence, your comment about 6 stalks per year one for each species & taking the appropriate rifle isn’t really practical. I’ve shot muntjac, roe & fallow in the same evening - if I’d only had a 223 I’d not have been able to (legally) shoot either the roe or fallow. Now if I’d gone out after muntjac with the 223 & only seen roe & fallow that’d have been a bit of a waste of time, effort & money. IMO you’re better off taking one rifle if out after any species of deer.

 

[Twodogs]

Good reason pops up a lot.
In Gloucestershire in order to evidence ‘good reason’ for deer they require evidence of at least six large animal kills. Whilst this is fraught with issues in its self and there being no legal or guidance as to the request of such, in principal, I believe it goes some way to showing good reason, other may disagree.
Throw in DSC 1, or similar, and you will present evidence that is hard to argue against.
Just my Penny’s worth.

 

[Liveonce]

i think your lack of experience will be a problem, rather than apply for your FAC now, why not join a local rifle club where likely you will be able to shoot .22lr, .223 and .308 If not you say you are a member of a game shoot with farm land, what shooting is available on the land for you? vermin? deer? if so get a member of the shoot to mentor you for twelve months. If no deer book several paid stalks using the estate rifle and as suggested do a dsc1 course.

With no experience I find it difficult to think you will be granted a .223 or .308 at first grant.

Use the 18 months before your SGC needs to be renewed to get the experience, which will likely give you twelve months before you apply to renew your SGC and add the FAC then, the renewal will be faster than the 18months you quote as you already have an expiring SGC.

 

[25 Sharps]

Recently received my GP form, so will be looking to get my FAC application in soon - reason being, the approximate grant time for FACs under my force is roughly the same as the time remaining on my SGC, so I'm hoping to convert to coterminous.

Because of the long grant time (~18 months!), I'd like to get the application in now, giving me ample time for rifle practice, DSC / PDS, and some guided stalks, so I hopefully have all the boxes ticked come interview time.

One sticking point is the requirement to state calibres on the application.. Is it possible / practical (or even advisable), to make a 'best estimate' of required calibre(s) on the application, but to have the option to change these at interview (I understand the application can't be 'amended' once it's submitted, so the interview would be the earliest actual opportunity?)

In an ideal scenario I suppose I would shoot a few calibres, find my preference and what I enjoy shooting, and weigh up the practicalities of which species I'll be shooting and to what extent, but I probably won't have those answers for a while due to fitting those things in around work, life and budget.

What are people's experiences with this? It seems it's not out of the ordinary for calibres on the application to be discussed with the FEO, so would it be reasonable to put down roughly what I think I'll want, and then potentially at interview say "actually, I put .308 based on initial advice from stalking friends, but having shot a few rifles and considering the species most accessible to me, I'd like to have 6.5 PRC on there instead" (hypothetical calibres).

For reference, my current logical choices would be:

• .22 LR - Mainly for targets / plinking. I'm a member of a local game shoot with farmland access, we have a few locations where we plink as a few other members have .22 LR's, and a local-ish clay ground also has a dedicated target range for it.
• .223 Rem - Small deer species.
• .308 - Large deer species.

I do like (on paper) having the option of two deer calibres. I've really no idea what I'll be shooting most often, I know we have Roe locally and some friends of friends do shoot locally, but in my mind I'll more than likely be picking stalking opportunities from places like this forum, to get experience of different locations, species, geography, topography etc. Rather than, say, managing a specific species in a set location. And from reading on here I realise many shoot with one calibre and I may find I end up doing so too... I just feel that putting down for a smaller and larger calibre gives a bit more flexibility perhaps..

You won’t get anything for plinking (you’ll be throwing your mates under the bus), you won’t get target without being a full member of a club.

Also, unless your friends have written permission to loan you the rifle for your plinking sessions, they are breaking the law.

You’re description doesn’t sound like you have good reason for the 2 centrefires either.

I’d go back to the drawing board, get some proper, documented experience and ensure you actually satisfy good reason.

 

[25 Sharps]

Good reason pops up a lot.
In Gloucestershire in order to evidence ‘good reason’ for deer they require evidence of at least six large animal kills. Whilst this is fraught with issues in its self and there being no legal or guidance as to the request of such, in principal, I believe it goes some way to showing good reason, other may disagree.
Throw in DSC 1, or similar, and you will present evidence that is hard to argue against.
Just my Penny’s worth.

That is utter nonsense.

I can perhaps see the reasoning experienced for an open ticket (at a push) but it has the square root of F’all to do with good reason.

Good reason is clearly set out in the guidance and it makes no mention of documented kills. If they pushed that on me I’d be asking for it in writing and querying why they are not following the guidance.

 

[Twodogs]

Yes utter nonsense, would not stand up to any legal challenge.
Yet another aspect of ‘continuity of practice’ across licensing authorities, or lack thereof, that the latest statutory guidance has failed to address.

 

[25 Sharps]

Yes utter nonsense, would not stand up to any legal challenge.
Yet another aspect of ‘continuity of practice’ across licensing authorities, or lack thereof, that the latest statutory guidance has failed to address.

I think guidance has addressed it, good reason is set out and shooting ‘x’ number of ‘y’ doesn’t come into good reason.