EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles

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The point I’m trying to get over is not that there is any difference in the way lead is ingested.
What I’d like to find out is, say out of a sample of 5000, what portion have ingested lead possibly from lead shot/bullets?
is it 0.1%, 1%, 10% or is it 0%?
I would suggest that most who have eaten deer or game will ingested lead particles. If you look at X-rays of deer shot with lead you will tiny little lead fragments in most of the forequarters, so unless you only eat the hind quarters and dispose of all the meat forward of the ribcage then chances are you will ingest lead particles.

Likewise with game birds, lead pellets go through the breast meat and we generally eat all the breast meat, including the bit around the pellet holes.

Appreciated its only a tiny amount at a time but it accumulates over time.

In put it another way - if you are hit by a 308 bullet 2,500 ft lbs of energy you will be in a pretty sorry state of affairs.

But if you are hit by a single air rifle pellet at 10 ft lbs it might sting a bit, or give you a small wound that might get infected. But get hit in the same spot by an air rifle pellet twice a week 250 times - ie so you have received 2,500 ft lbs of energy - you will have a nasty wound, open to infection and chances are you will die from infection and you death certificate will give cause of death as septicaemia not being hit by an air rifle pellet.

A close relative died from Leukaemia, another good friend is on the blood cancer pathway. They have eaten lots of game throughout their life, but medics are treating the symptoms not the cause.
 
Lots....and lots....of irrelevant twaddle here.

The arguments for and against bans are no longer of any concern, however much science you spout. Bans may well be wrong, but they are inevitable.

We must embrace alternatives and spin it our way rather than allowing our opponents....and that is what they are...to occupy the moral highground. To try and pretend its an argument we can win is futile and does us no good.
 
A close relative died from Leukaemia, another good friend is on the blood cancer pathway. They have eaten lots of game throughout their life, but medics are treating the symptoms not the cause.
About as valuable a piece of data as the contrasting 'I've eaten, smoked, drunk [insert substance here] all my life and never had a day off work' argument is to your opposition.

I'm no scientist but - even for a fool like me who had to ask the chemistry teacher why he was using velvet-skinned subterranean creatures as a unit of measurement - your attempts to approximate against and borrow from science, while remaining firmly on emotional territory are ineffective and poorly-concealed.

For the avoidance of doubt, my own arguments are much more scientifically robust. The equation is as follows:

Antis are tw@ts + BASC are tw@ts = I will keep using lead until some tw@t bans it.

I will then resist the next thing. And the next...
 
Lots....and lots....of irrelevant twaddle here.

The arguments for and against bans are no longer of any concern, however much science you spout. Bans may well be wrong, but they are inevitable.

We must embrace alternatives and spin it our way rather than allowing our opponents....and that is what they are...to occupy the moral highground. To try and pretend its an argument we can win is futile and does us no good.
I’ve been saying this for years 😂
 
Sweet Jesus but some of you guys would try the patience of a saint, you ask for the scientific evidence, wont read it when its posted, then carry on blithely spouting the same tripe regardless.
At least have the courtesy to acknowledge posts responding to your demands for evidence with a polite “ thank you” , it wont hurt.
So since you can’t be arsed with the long winded, erudite and difficult to read scientific explanations, here’s short and not very scientific explanation of why people wont let us continue to broadcast a toxic heavy metal into the environment and the food chain.
They believe its environmentally unsound and unnecessary.

Its that simple.
 
They believe its environmentally unsound and unnecessary.

Your rather flippant response falls down at the first hurdle, they 'believe' , 'they' cant find any real evidence that lead from firearm use is causing detriment to health, so they simply quote lead per se is.
Hence a phase out of lead projectiles, whilst completely ignoring lead poisoning from just about every other area, including water supply.

If you truly believe that lead shot and eventually bullets, will be outlawed because of environmental concerns, then I feel quite sorry for your rather naive state of mind.
They will of course be banning lead in military use ? Likely at the same time that MBTs are running on 'clean' electric motors, and fighter jets are powered by recycled fart gas ?

Private firearm ownership is doomed, of that there is no doubt, when firearms users welcome changes that curtail efficient use of materials, and instead opt for more expensive and inefficient projectiles , even when they dont have to.
The sad part is they actually convince themselves that the copper/bismuth/steel substitutes are actually better !
The even sadder part is , 10-20 years down the line, copper and bismuth will become environmentally unfriendly too, and the last few firearms users will have to resort to spears and bows.

The tragedy of the whole situation is the BASC attitude, they reeled us in with a promise to protect the sport, swelled membership....then dumped on us from a great height, without consultation, and with no avenue of back track, despite the massive losses they have sustained in membership.
They literally couldnt give a flying one about you me , or 99.9 % of this forum, theyre interests are corporate, as that is the safest area of shooting , and will , in their belief be the last to go.
 
Your rather flippant response falls down at the first hurdle, they 'believe' , 'they' cant find any real evidence that lead from firearm use is causing detriment to health, so they simply quote lead per se is.
Hence a phase out of lead projectiles, whilst completely ignoring lead poisoning from just about every other area, including water supply.

If you truly believe that lead shot and eventually bullets, will be outlawed because of environmental concerns, then I feel quite sorry for your rather naive state of mind.
They will of course be banning lead in military use ? Likely at the same time that MBTs are running on 'clean' electric motors, and fighter jets are powered by recycled fart gas ?

Private firearm ownership is doomed, of that there is no doubt, when firearms users welcome changes that curtail efficient use of materials, and instead opt for more expensive and inefficient projectiles , even when they dont have to.
The sad part is they actually convince themselves that the copper/bismuth/steel substitutes are actually better !
The even sadder part is , 10-20 years down the line, copper and bismuth will become environmentally unfriendly too, and the last few firearms users will have to resort to spears and bows.

The tragedy of the whole situation is the BASC attitude, they reeled us in with a promise to protect the sport, swelled membership....then dumped on us from a great height, without consultation, and with no avenue of back track, despite the massive losses they have sustained in membership.
They literally couldnt give a flying one about you me , or 99.9 % of this forum, theyre interests are corporate, as that is the safest area of shooting , and will , in their belief be the last to go.
Inefficient projectiles my arse!

Copper bullets work spot on, shoot 100 deer with copper and tell me the difference.
 
So since you can’t be arsed with the long winded, erudite and difficult to read scientific explanations, here’s short and not very scientific explanation of why people wont let us continue to broadcast a toxic heavy metal into the environment and the food chain.
They believe its environmentally unsound and unnecessary.

Its that simple.
Well tell them to stop importing nucleur waste and dropping it down mineshafts in the Midlands then. And while you are at it tell them to stop discharging funny stuff from certain power stations into the sea.
I somehow think this is far more environmentally unsound.😠
 
I’ve been keeping an eye on this thread after my initial contributions and found myself pondering other analogous situations to lead in food/the environment.

In addition to the already cited cigarettes, alcohol and fast food, I remembered the warnings I’ve seen on cans of tuna.

A bit of quick reading suggests there is a ‘safe level’ of mercury intake. That seems surprising as I’ve always thought of mercury as more and not less toxic than lead which has the oft cited ‘no safe limit’.

It also appears the case that the public don’t seem to care enough about eating mercury (and nor do supermarket chains) for it to have an effect on the market for tuna; which continues to fish the see clear of them.

I’m not quite sure where I’m going with this, I just thought it an interesting comparison. Maybe one of our more medically minded contributors might chime in?

In terms of where my dog sits in this fight, I tend to be unconvinced that elemental lead from ammunition is a problem ecologically (outside of certain areas) or from a food safety perspective (as long as sensible precautions are taken). However, I fear an inevitability to the curtailment of the use of lead and consider it may be better to be part of the move away from it than to stand on the outside and let others (with undeniable vested interests) dictate the form of restrictions.
 
Copper bullets work spot on, shoot 100 deer with copper and tell me the difference.
Im pleased to see youve taken a good scientific approach to the matter 😀

Meanwhile , heres someone who has.
 
Your rather flippant response falls down at the first hurdle, they 'believe' , 'they' cant find any real evidence that lead from firearm use is causing detriment to health, so they simply quote lead per se is.
Hence a phase out of lead projectiles, whilst completely ignoring lead poisoning from just about every other area, including water supply.

If you truly believe that lead shot and eventually bullets, will be outlawed because of environmental concerns, then I feel quite sorry for your rather naive state of mind.
They will of course be banning lead in military use ? Likely at the same time that MBTs are running on 'clean' electric motors, and fighter jets are powered by recycled fart gas ?

Private firearm ownership is doomed, of that there is no doubt, when firearms users welcome changes that curtail efficient use of materials, and instead opt for more expensive and inefficient projectiles , even when they dont have to.
The sad part is they actually convince themselves that the copper/bismuth/steel substitutes are actually better !
The even sadder part is , 10-20 years down the line, copper and bismuth will become environmentally unfriendly too, and the last few firearms users will have to resort to spears and bows.

The tragedy of the whole situation is the BASC attitude, they reeled us in with a promise to protect the sport, swelled membership....then dumped on us from a great height, without consultation, and with no avenue of back track, despite the massive losses they have sustained in membership.
They literally couldnt give a flying one about you me , or 99.9 % of this forum, theyre interests are corporate, as that is the safest area of shooting , and will , in their belief be the last to go.
Last try on the lead issue, the evidence is there and its clear and unambiguous.
In summary, lead is bad because it is a poison.
It doesn’t matter whether the lead is in sheets on roofs, water pipes, paint or bullets and pellets, its poison and you’re not going to be allowed to use it, especially, you’re not going to be allowed to use it in a discretionary past time where alternatives are available, it doesn’t matter whether you agree or not, you’re not going to be allowed to use it just in case you might poison someone or something else.
If you don't like the science, tough, you still can’t use lead because a lot of people dont want to take the risk.
I agree with some of your other points, private firearms will be banned, but I don’t think lead will have anything to do with it, the argument is already pretty well advanced on several fronts, if you can ban shooting game you can legitimately exclude most of us from firearm ownership, the media are already virulently anti - gun so it wont take much of a shove, and theres sweet feck all to be done about it, that particular ball is already rolling down the hill at a fair speed.
BASC, FACE etc have an impossible and thankless task on their hands, do you really think that they didn’t pursue every avenue in a bid to keep lead ammunition?
This campaign has been rumbling away for 30 years, eventually they HAD to accept that lead was going because in a very risk averse world they had no counter to the medical “zero acceptable level “ argument.
BASC, FACE etc do actually care, this is just one battle that couldn’t be won, better to re-group and save our energy for the next one.
Participation in just about every outdoor activity, including golf, is declining as the Millennial generation comes of age, they're mainly screen orientated and don't like the discomfort and unpredictability of the great outdoors, but these are the army of guys and girls that can be mobilised in a mouse click and have the corporate world terrified. Pick you’re own favourite example of a keyboard army forcing a climb down and grovelling apology from the CEO of a major company for something totally trivial.
Be afraid, you’re not paranoid, the suckers are out to get us.
 
Well tell them to stop importing nucleur waste and dropping it down mineshafts in the Midlands then. And while you are at it tell them to stop discharging funny stuff from certain power stations into the sea.
I somehow think this is far more environmentally unsound.😠
That seems totally reasonable, who do we tell to stop?
 
For the avoidance of doubt, my own arguments are much more scientifically robust. The equation is as follows:

Antis are tw@ts + BASC are tw@ts = I will keep using lead until some tw@t bans it.

I will then resist the next thing. And the next...
And herein lies why shooting community will end up being outlawed - accept the science and just get over it.
 
And herein lies why shooting community will end up being outlawed - accept the science and just get over it.
Which science? The following...ahem...'science':
A close relative died from Leukaemia, another good friend is on the blood cancer pathway. They have eaten lots of game throughout their life, but medics are treating the symptoms not the cause.
 
Im pleased to see youve taken a good scientific approach to the matter 😀

Meanwhile , heres someone who has.
I’ve been shooting them for 15 years in 6.5 and 270 ans 30 cal from Barnes ttsx and tsx to lapua naturalis to the new fox offering, shot cwd and muntjac to sika in Scotland fallow and lowland reds in all those years I’ve lost 3 and they were from a batch of 130gn tsx about 10 years ago.

so I have a fair bit of knowledge when it come to the non toxic projectile department
 
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