Dogs mandatory for stalkers?

dunwater said:
my Scandi friends are happy with steel and other non toxic in their 12 bores.
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For roe and hare shooting lead shot is used. I don't know anybody who uses non toxic for that sort of hunting. Pheasant shooting is done on a much smaller scale than in the UK I've only ever seen lead used. Duck shooting over water its steel. For shooting clays on a clay ground its steel only. In Sweden the two main hunting orgs take a much more cynical view about the lead ban than those in the UK. As little of our game is sold to a game dealer I can see lead being used well into the future after any ban.
 
Remember the good old days when we used lead and no lead bullets weren't imported😄

Then we had to sort a bullet that worked in our rifle, a friend's 243 wouldn't group 100g bullets, it was 1/2" with 80g, but they were useless on deer😡

What we did then was try another bullet, we didn't wings that lead doesn't work - oh blissful days🎈
 
At the risk of answering this seriously.......

I'd say that if dog and handler trained and tested to a high standard there's no need for that many dogs to cover the whole of the UK.

If every stalker attempts to / trains a dog and tests it to a low standard it'll be worse for the welfare of wounded deer. I note that the FC test focuses more on the dog being quiet in a vehicle than it does being able to actually end suffering. My local FC staff aren't aloud to let the dog of the long line wtaf?

With the law the way it is regarding crossing boundaries with firearms how many people have finished an angry stag at bay with a knife? I see people tracking mobile deer with Labradors, I'm not sure how that track & chase ends.

When I was in Alabama we hunted hogs with a pack and finished them with knives, it was not for the fainthearted and the bavarian cross dogo would be a banned breed in the UK but man that dog could work! It wasn't that long ago we hunted the carted deer in the UK I fear that much of that expertise has since been lost.

I'd say everyone already has access to a dog and handler, if it's mobile, or your unsure, put the best team on the job, not your mate's spaniel that passed some 'test'
 
Loler UK said:
At the risk of answering this seriously.......

I'd say that if dog and handler trained and tested to a high standard there's no need for that many dogs to cover the whole of the UK.

If every stalker attempts to / trains a dog and tests it to a low standard it'll be worse for the welfare of wounded deer. I note that the FC test focuses more on the dog being quiet in a vehicle than it does being able to actually end suffering. My local FC staff aren't aloud to let the dog of the long line wtaf?

With the law the way it is regarding crossing boundaries with firearms how many people have finished an angry stag at bay with a knife? I see people tracking mobile deer with Labradors, I'm not sure how that track & chase ends.

When I was in Alabama we hunted hogs with a pack and finished them with knives, it was not for the fainthearted and the bavarian cross dogo would be a banned breed in the UK but man that dog could work! It wasn't that long ago we hunted the carted deer in the UK I fear that much of that expertise has since been lost.

I'd say everyone already has access to a dog and handler, if it's mobile, or your unsure, put the best team on the job, not your mate's spaniel that passed some 'test'
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I have killed a stag with a knife, a hind and a very lively calf.

also I fully agree that with the boundary issues in England tracking is a pain in the arse!

a lot of work for little reward
 
As a slight aside..Are we wounding more deer in the UK now than we used to? I have been out of the scene for a dozen years and I am now about to 'restart' with some light, recreational deer stalking.

I know that deer numbers have increased since the 90's, head shots seem to be far more common. Are we shooting 'mobile' deer now? I don't think many people are actually 'driving' deer but is a 'walking' shot now taken whereas before it would be forbidden?

Is it more of and expectation that you will wound deer now? Is it more accepted that you will wound deer now? Thus is it also a more realistic expectation that you will need to follow up more wounded deer than was expected or acceptable in the 80's and 90's?

On the continent, real live experience at tracking is a regular occurrence, with driven big game shooting, it just goes with the territory, therefore their dogs become very proficient at it. Of course, they also have the regular trialling scene too. Is that the way we are heading in the UK?
 
Keith Edmunds said:
As a slight aside..Are we wounding more deer in the UK now than we used to? I have been out of the scene for a dozen years and I am now about to 'restart' with some light, recreational deer stalking.

I know that deer numbers have increased since the 90's, head shots seem to be far more common. Are we shooting 'mobile' deer now? I don't think many people are actually 'driving' deer but is a 'walking' shot now taken whereas before it would be forbidden?

Is it more of and expectation that you will wound deer now? Is it more accepted that you will wound deer now? Thus is it also a more realistic expectation that you will need to follow up more wounded deer than was expected or acceptable in the 80's and 90's?

On the continent, real live experience at tracking is a regular occurrence, with driven big game shooting, it just goes with the territory, therefore their dogs become very proficient at it. Of course, they also have the regular trialling scene too. Is that the way we are heading in the UK?
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If your looking to track wounded deer in England be prepared for failure and lots of it, the boundary laws make it impossible to track head / leg shots efficiently also gut shot ones too if not left alone.

that the reality of tracking here.

on the continent completely different ball game with laws to support tracking and animal welfare after hunting

that’s my independent opinion
 
Norfolk Deer Search said:
If your looking to track wounded deer in England be prepared for failure and lots of it, the boundary laws make it impossible to track head / leg shots efficiently also gut shot ones too if not left alone.

that the reality of tracking here.

on the continent completely different ball game with laws to support tracking and animal welfare after hunting

that’s my independent opinion
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I guess boundary laws only make it 'impossible' if the wounded deer goes over a boundary on which you don't have permission.......But I get your point.

It pays to get permission on neighbouring Estates for humane dispatch purposes.
 
The laws different from England to Scotland and much easier to track using sect25 up north, in reality people have a duty to put in place permission to cross boundary’s for animal welfare it is really that simple.
Looking forward other laws will be made regarding wounded dangerous deer as per that other document that was posted on another thread.
People said the sect 25 laws are rubbish and don’t exist but recent events with the stag shot in the water show
no charges brought and no guns taken show that sect 25 does indeed give you the right to dispatch a wounded deer when you do not have permission.
Now the real issue we all face is not from deer but wild boar, a wounded wild boar has no sect25 and is far more dangerous than any deer and either England or Scotland nothing can be done the powers at be don’t recognise wild boar, seasons or anything and this needs addressing far more, regards Wayne
 
I'd not say impossible in E&W. If the dog is happy & experienced enough it will catch or kill or bay well enough for you to finish it with a knife, personally I've been amazed how little attention a bayed deer /hog pays to the man sneaking up on it with a knife and that the dog seems to know what to do, switching from baying, holding & turning the beast. That's kind of my point, if you've not got an experienced dog chance of failure increases massively.

I have often wondered / considered that perhaps some of the larger specialist breeds and crosses are better suited to ending suffering in E&W, or working them in pairs / packs like I have abroad (legal issues with packs duly noted) That said I've seen Teckles bay boar very effectively.

In my experience, once the dogs in Alabama got the scent of a hog, success was 100% but that was not hunting a wounded individual and crafty boar would run towards groups of sows & youngsters to save their own bacon, many of the dogs were dogo / apbt crosses too. A pack would often be made of several different specialists with tracking / baying hounds and then the bigger boys to strike / catch
 
Loler UK said:
I'd not say impossible in E&W. If the dog is happy & experienced enough it will catch or kill or bay well enough for you to finish it with a knife, personally I've been amazed how little attention a bayed deer /hog pays to the man sneaking up on it with a knife and that the dog seems to know what to do, switching from baying, holding & turning the beast. That's kind of my point, if you've not got an experienced dog chance of failure increases massively.

I have often wondered / considered that perhaps some of the larger specialist breeds and crosses are better suited to ending suffering in E&W, or working them in pairs / packs like I have abroad (legal issues with packs duly noted) That said I've seen Teckles bay boar very effectively.

In my experience, once the dogs in Alabama got the scent of a hog, success was 100% but that was not hunting a wounded individual and crafty boar would run towards groups of sows & youngsters to save their own bacon, many of the dogs were dogo / apbt crosses too. A pack would often be made of several different specialists with tracking / baying hounds and then the bigger boys to strike / catch
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I wouldn't even want to predict the way UK laws will go regarding what our dogs will be allowed to do in the future. I would think a pair of 'larger breed' dogs would certainly end suffering pretty sharpish but.......if witnessed by any of the general public would cause an outcry!! I gave up expecting any 'common sense' in 2004.
 
Keith Edmunds said:
I wouldn't even want to predict the way UK laws will go regarding what our dogs will be allowed to do in the future. I would think a pair of 'larger breed' dogs would certainly end suffering pretty sharpish but.......if witnessed by any of the general public would cause an outcry!! I gave up expecting any 'common sense' in 2004.
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For following up on wounded animals then nothing will change it’s written into law already, letting your dog kill an unwounded animal is a different thing altogether, regards Wayne
 
Crown Estates Scotland only own slightly less than 50% of the foreshore in Scotland,
and as caberslash says, sea loch.
So I take it you are just presuming without knowing the facts.
 
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