Copper bullet design and expansion / fragmentation

[Flash9919]

I’ve had a bit of time on my hands so decided to do a bit of testing on a variety of different copper bullets. It seems to me that most of the bullets tested seem to fall into one of two categories:
1. Designed to mushroom / expand in a controlled manner (whether they do or not is a different matter!)
2. Designed to partially fragment on impact shedding some weight before penetrating with little further expansion.

With the bullets designed to expand, despite manufacturers claims, in my experience, in calibres below .30 cal reliable expansion is rarely achieved below about 2500fps. I actually had 7mm bullets going 2850fps that failed to expand at all.

You then have a few more bullets that ‘technically’ may have been designed to expand, but in practice behave more like a vmax/solid hybrid....the front 3rd of the bullet fragments on Impact leaving the remaining 2/3rds to continue on the original path as a solid projectile.

Don’t get me wrong, with the exception of the 7mm armour piercing thing they would all kill deer......let’s be honest expanding bullets aren’t necessary for clean kills as I’m sure many bow hunters will attest.

However, would a vmax be deemed deer legal in Scotland? I’m pretty sure that the Deer Act Scotland has a requirement for the use of a bullet designed to expand in a controlled fashion.....or words to that effect....in my experience, there’s nothing terribly controlled about the expansion in some of these bullets.

For the record, I’m not saying copper / all non toxic bullets are sh*t, I personally use them for everything I may eat....I’m just curious about the legality of some in Scotland and some dubious claims about expansion velocities.

 

[alasdair]

This is a theme which seems to be cropping up all over the place i.e expanding (mushrooming) bullets vs partially disintegrating/fragmenting bullets that shed particles of metal (= weight, and hence energy) in the beast.
I would observe that all conventional cup and core lead core bullets (apart from FMJ) are partially disintegrating. Xray studies show that fragments of lead from dust size up are left in the carcass which contributes to the energy dump in the carcass and the "knock-over" ("knock-out" even) effect. And it is these small/tiny particles of lead that are likely to produce the harm to the environment. In theory a partially disintegrating (controlled disintegration?) non-lead bullet could have the same knockdown effect as lead core. The particles of copper or brass left in the animal do not have the same toxic potential as lead, though arguably you could break a tooth on a petal fragmented from a non-lead bullet! (most of us have copper water pipes in our homes, and unlike the lead pipes we used to have, they don't poison us.)

"Mushrooming" and "disintegrating, fragmenting" bullets are both "designed to expand". Watch some ballistic gell studies - they expand! So in that respect are IMHO deer legal in UK.

There are bullets (lead core and now non-lead) designed deliberately to expand and disintegrate so that there is unlikely to be an exit wound and/or any chance of any part of the bullet continuing through to harm another beast (or worse). It's horses for courses.

What I'm seeking is a non-lead bullet (like you I don't want to eat lead or feed it to my family, or leave lead in the gralloch etc., to feed wildlife); one that will give as good a thump, energy dump, knock-over effect as lead core BUT also have an exit wound and blood trail to follow if it doesn't drop right there. A mushrooming bullet only dumps a comparatively small percentage of it's kinetic energy in the animal - so a bigger heavier bullet will be required to give the same impact as a smaller partially disintegrating bullet that dumps much more energy. If that partially disintegrating bullet can be engineered so that it consistently and reliably disintegrates at lower velocities than the existing mushrooming bullets are now being reported to, then we are on to a winner. It looks as though Nielsen Sonic Hunt and Lehigh Controlled Chaos copper are designed like this (it remains to be seen if they perform as designed, results look promising). I note with interest that Lehigh have CC copper bullets designed for .308 sub-sonic, 300 AAC Blackout and pistol rounds! So presumably non-lead bullets can be designed to expand/disintegrate at very low velocities compared to those we use.

RWS in their "Evo-Green" are clearly pursuing the same line of thinking though using different non-lead metals to produce a partially fragmenting bullet with big knock-down effect.
Their RWS Evo-Green Short Rifle for .308 is this sort of thinking taken to it's logical conclusion - IF they shoot straight in my rifle (Sako 85 Finnlight 2 in .308 = 20.5 inch barrel) AND reliably and consistently perform as designed AND if they were readily available in the UK I'd give up hand loading! (I don't think that they are designed for long range = 300+yards - but then, neither am I).

Thanks for starting this interesting thread.

Alasdair

 

[Heym SR20]

I have been using RWS HIT and the Fox bullets in 7mm. They both seem to work very well in 7x57 and 7x65r velocities- ie c2700 to 2800 fps muzzle. They do penetrate well. The older lung shot behind the shoulder through is not ideal as there is not a huge amount of resistance. I much prefer the high shoulder shot where the shock wave really impacts the CNS hard - that’s what knocks the beast down and the bullet still massive damage to heart and lungs so it has a big and immediate loss of oil pressure. With the lower behind shoulder heart lung shot I find exact same result with lead and non toxic. Animal takes off at a run and collapses dead a few seconds later. Or just stands there as if nothing much has happened before starting to sway and then fall over.

As to lead pipes and water. Firstly lead pipes over time get lined with calcium deposits so water actual runs through a calcified tube, rather than a lead tube.

And any runs of lead pipe will these days be pretty short, and given water usage in most households the water you actually drink would have had minimal time in contact with lead pipework.

There is quite a bit of lead in the ground. Large parts of scotland contain lead and gold deposits, but water companies put in lead filters on the mains supply and or/ most remote houses in lead areas relying on boreholes / off the hill water supplies have a seperate drinking water tap with filters, or have a filtration system doing all the water going into the house.

 

[big ears]

I’m starting this journey as well. Have only up till now used fox mushroom expansion but about to try evo green bullets.

the lead debate will grumble on. For me I’m not so worried about lead ingestion but there are concerns on the impact on wildlife. Birds seem to be very susceptible to lead in the environment and I presume that this is due to their gizzards grinding the the food and rendering and lead into an absorbable state. There are reports of Raptor deaths in the states from eating gut piles with lead in them.
we are under threat from antis and to me a voluntary switch showing we are concerned for the environment is good PR.

Would love to know anyone’s experience of the evo green bullets.

 

[NigelM]

I’m starting this journey as well. Have only up till now used fox mushroom expansion but about to try evo green bullets.

the lead debate will grumble on. For me I’m not so worried about lead ingestion but there are concerns on the impact on wildlife. Birds seem to be very susceptible to lead in the environment and I presume that this is due to their gizzards grinding the the food and rendering and lead into an absorbable state. There are reports of Raptor deaths in the states from eating gut piles with lead in them.
we are under threat from antis and to me a voluntary switch showing we are concerned for the environment is good PR.

Would love to know anyone’s experience of the evo green bullets.

Where are you buying them from? I looked but could only find supply through Germany at €1.50 each plus shipping/duty/UK VAT which put them at £2 a bullet near enough.

 

[Kalahari]

I have been using RWS HIT and the Fox bullets in 7mm. They both seem to work very well in 7x57 and 7x65r velocities- ie c2700 to 2800 fps muzzle. They do penetrate well. The older lung shot behind the shoulder through is not ideal as there is not a huge amount of resistance. I much prefer the high shoulder shot where the shock wave really impacts the CNS hard - that’s what knocks the beast down and the bullet still massive damage to heart and lungs so it has a big and immediate loss of oil pressure. With the lower behind shoulder heart lung shot I find exact same result with lead and non toxic. Animal takes off at a run and collapses dead a few seconds later. Or just stands there as if nothing much has happened before starting to sway and then fall over.

As to lead pipes and water. Firstly lead pipes over time get lined with calcium deposits so water actual runs through a calcified tube, rather than a lead tube.

And any runs of lead pipe will these days be pretty short, and given water usage in most households the water you actually drink would have had minimal time in contact with lead pipework.

There is quite a bit of lead in the ground. Large parts of scotland contain lead and gold deposits, but water companies put in lead filters on the mains supply and or/ most remote houses in lead areas relying on boreholes / off the hill water supplies have a seperate drinking water tap with filters, or have a filtration system doing all the water going into the house.

Also, as anyone who has done a tiny bit of chemistry can confirm, lead is very insoluble in cold water. The high lead cases almost alwars occurred when people used water from the hot water sysyem for cooking/making tea!

David.

 

[big ears]

Where are you buying them from? I looked but could only find supply through Germany at €1.50 each plus shipping/duty/UK VAT which put them at £2 a bullet near enough.

At present it’s loaded ammo through Ruag. If they work was going to explore reloading

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

At present it’s loaded ammo through Ruag. If they work was going to explore reloading

I have sent an enquiry through to RWS about getting component evo green bullets and if they plan to make any heavier offerings for magnum calibres - I'll pop it on here if I get anything back

 

[big ears]

I have sent an enquiry through to RWS about getting component evo green bullets and if they plan to make any heavier offerings for magnum calibres - I'll pop it on here if I get anything back

Great lease let me know if you are successful

 

[mathieson]

Where are you buying them from? I looked but could only find supply through Germany at €1.50 each plus shipping/duty/UK VAT which put them at £2 a bullet near enough.

if its fox bullets your after I get mine from edinburgh rifles the 7mm’s are around £50 for 50 243’s are around £45 for 50

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

Great lease let me know if you are successful

With regards to components I have asked one of the dealers in the uk as they will not supply direct, the other questions I have just got answers to:

Q) What terminal velocity are you finding that these Evo greens will perform down to (if possible do you have any images of ballistic gels at a multitude of terminal velocities?

A) Depending on the diameter between 550 - 600 m/s. Unfortunately we don’t have a picture.



Q) Have you any plans to produce a heavier bullet weight, especially in .30 cal to handle the magnum calibres (.300WSM, .300WM, .300NM etc)?

A) Not planned right now.

Hope this information is of help to someone - the RWS contact form works well
and they got back to me in a few days if you have other questions.

Ben

 

[Heym SR20]

In the past I have just ordered in RWS bullets from Frankonia - order online, pay the money, few days later they arrive through the front door. Easy peasy.

Oh - I forgot

 

[big ears]

In the past I have just ordered in RWS bullets from Frankonia - order online, pay the money, few days later they arrive through the front door. Easy peasy.

Oh - I forgot

Guess that is out if the question now?

 

[Heym SR20]

Guess that is out if the question now?

Feck alone knows. According to Boris et al we should have friction free trade, so that businesses either side of the ditch can easily sell to each other and consumers. But in reality products may get through quickly and easily. Or they may get stuck and you end VAT on the full European retail price to UK HMRC to get the goods released.

Its OK though as this all adds to the excitement - its a bit like the good old days of living in central Africa. You would get little surprises every now and then - Christmas present arriving in July for example.

 

[Heym SR20]

Also RUAG import RWS products, but they have never seem to have brought in components.

 

[8x57]

Also RUAG import RWS products, but they have never seem to have brought in components.

They do occasionally import components but its special order via their dealer network and they require a minimum order so not exactly cheap to try a particular bullet. It's my personal opinion that they don't really want to know about selling reloading components, or at they haven't really made any effort to make them more available in the shops which is disappointing as RWS produce some great quality products.

 

[Heym SR20]

Here is the link to Frankonia's order page for Evo-Green Bullets in 308. RWS Geschosse .308 9g/139grs. Evo Green

Like all RWS Bullets they are expensive - as in €88 for 50. Mind you the RWS ID Classic which is the original partition type bullet with twin lead cores are €84.40 for 50. Barnes TTSX by comparison are €64 and the Hornady GMX €65. Below are all their 308 offerings in Bleifrei (lead free). The Brenneke bullets would be worth a look pehaps.

Geschosse - Wiederladen - Schießsport Online Shop | FRANKONIA

Geschosse kaufen | Hier Geschosse für Sportschützen auf Rechnung bestellen | Geschosse im Schießsport Online Shop ✓ seit 1908

www.frankonia.de

 

[NigelM]

Here is the link to Frankonia's order page for Evo-Green Bullets in 308. RWS Geschosse .308 9g/139grs. Evo Green

Like all RWS Bullets they are expensive - as in €88 for 50. Mind you the RWS ID Classic which is the original partition type bullet with twin lead cores are €84.40 for 50. Barnes TTSX by comparison are €64 and the Hornady GMX €65.

Geschosse - Wiederladen - Schießsport Online Shop | FRANKONIA

Geschosse kaufen | Hier Geschosse für Sportschützen auf Rechnung bestellen | Geschosse im Schießsport Online Shop ✓ seit 1908

www.frankonia.de

...and I think that is likely to be plus UK duty and UK VAT so total cost will be over £2 a bullet

 

[Border]

Norma's Evostrike is a RWS Evo green with a different colour polymer tip I believe.
Whether they are cheaper or more expensive I don't know or availability.

 

[Alantoo]

The Brenneke bullets would be worth a look pehaps.

I have had a box of the Brenneke TUG and they grouped okay...haven't used any on deer yet. Price wise they are the most expensive bullets I have bought...they are in boxes of 25.

Alan