Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

[Dunwaters]

So that just leaves all the older guns and tight choked game guns. As for bismuth what about all of the pest controllers out there who shoot big bags of pigeons?

Can you link the source you have for the planned exemptions for .22? Seems incredible when we’re only 1 year into the 2 year consultation that they already know what they plan to do.

Forget the pest controllers, theres already steel shot out there, not as cheap as lead but not too far off it, so they’ll use it.
The older game guns with 2 3/4 chambers and tightly choked can be opened out and use the standard steel loads, the really old guns with shorter chambers are going to expensive to feed, no argument, but a lot of them are “ special occasion “ guns and don’t see a lot of use.
Theres currently no plan to do away with the .22, its not included in either the voluntary UK ban, UK or EU REACH proposals at the moment. I dont have a link but I’m fairly sure its specifically excluded from the UK proposals. The sheer number of .22’s out there makes an effective ban and compensation expensive.

 

[Liveonce]

The large commercial game shoots, with cooperate customers paying silly money, to what has become big business will be the death of shooting for the average working man enjoying some weekend sport shooting clay or for pest control.

 

[Dunwaters]

It’s not just about competing it’s about being able to practice!

Same answer, and its already been addressed, the biggest obstacle to changing to non lead alternatives for clay shooting is the rules of the governing bodies, once the rules are changed we’ll all be using similar loads, just like we are now.

 

[Liveonce]

Forget the pest controllers, theres already steel shot out there, not as cheap as lead but not too far off it, so they’ll use it.
The older game guns with 2 3/4 chambers and tightly choked can be opened out and use the standard steel loads, the really old guns with shorter chambers are going to expensive to feed, no argument, but a lot of them are “ special occasion “ guns and don’t see a lot of use.
Theres currently no plan to do away with the .22, its not included in either the voluntary UK ban, UK or EU REACH proposals at the moment. I dont have a link but I’m fairly sure its specifically excluded from the UK proposals. The sheer number of .22’s out there makes an effective ban and compensation expensive.

you cannot have your cake and eat it, if you exclude ,22’s by that argument then the same applies to a lot of shotguns, have you seen the price of purdeys, Holland and Holland etc.

 

[Liveonce]

Same answer, and its already been addressed, the biggest obstacle to changing to non lead alternatives for clay shooting is the rules of the governing bodies, once the rules are changed we’ll all be using similar loads, just like we are now.

Which governing bodies? Just because we ban all lead and single use plastic does not mean the rest of the world will follow.

 

[25 Sharps]

Same answer, and its already been addressed, the biggest obstacle to changing to non lead alternatives for clay shooting is the rules of the governing bodies, once the rules are changed we’ll all be using similar loads, just like we are now.

But not against other nations we won’t!!

 

[Liveonce]

Um.

You do realise our pistol shooters can’t practice at home don’t you?

Olympic sport or not, they will ignore the practicalities.

As for compensation, how many guns are there out there that won’t shoot steel shot? They won’t be compensating anyone as ‘alternatives are available’ which is entirely my point.

After what the pistol ban cost they will have learnt the lesson and paying compensation will be very low on the agenda.

 

[Dunwaters]

The large commercial game shoots, with cooperate customers paying silly money, to what has become big business will be the death of shooting for the average working man enjoying some weekend sport shooting clay or for pest control.

If you look at the comments here it seems to be quite the opposite. Most of us ( well me anyway) dont shoot more than a couple of hundred game cartridges per annum, if it was twice as expensive it wouldn’t bother me. The people getting upset are vermin shooters using high volumes of cartridges, mostly not a factor, since they tend to use modern steel proofed guns, game shooters and guys with lovely old heirloom pieces. Frankly if you can afford to spend 2K on a days shooting you can afford an extra 50 for cartridges, most of you are using modern O/U guns anyway, so what’s the problem.
If you have an older 2-2 1/2’ gun, you have my sympathy but cartridges will still be available, just not lead so its bismuth or hang it on the wall.
Expensive but doable for special occasions.

 

[Dunwaters]

you cannot have your cake and eat it, if you exclude ,22’s by that argument then the same applies to a lot of shotguns, have you seen the price of purdeys, Holland and Holland etc.

I’m not excluding .22’s the proposals are, I presume its for practical reasons.
The price of old S/S doubles is tumbling here, I’ve been offered a couple for free including a nice W+S that tempted me greatly, but aside from nostalgia their day is done. If you want a good laugh give one of the hotshots at your local clay ground a go with your straight stocked, double trigger, auto safety game gun.
I hate to admit it but I shoot better with the Beretta, the S/S is purely for walking up with the dogs ( and probably not the best choice for that either).

 

[25 Sharps]

Forget the pest controllers, theres already steel shot out there, not as cheap as lead but not too far off it, so they’ll use it.
The older game guns with 2 3/4 chambers and tightly choked can be opened out and use the standard steel loads, the really old guns with shorter chambers are going to expensive to feed, no argument, but a lot of them are “ special occasion “ guns and don’t see a lot of use.
Theres currently no plan to do away with the .22, its not included in either the voluntary UK ban, UK or EU REACH proposals at the moment. I dont have a link but I’m fairly sure its specifically excluded from the UK proposals. The sheer number of .22’s out there makes an effective ban and compensation expensive.

Did you miss the post about the HSE launching a 2 year consultation on ALL lead ammunition in ALL environments.

“We are gathering information and evidence to support the development of a UK REACH restriction dossier (report) on risks to the environment and human health of the use of lead in ammunition (projectiles) in all habitats in Great Britain (GB; England, Scotland, Wales). Military and non-civilian use of ammunition is excluded.”

UK REACH – restriction proposals 001 - Questions for the call for evidence for the lead shot ammunition - Health and Safety Executive - Citizen Space

Find and participate in consultations run by the Health and Safety Executive

consultations.hse.gov.uk

So UK reach is looking at .22 and everything else!

 

[Liveonce]

If you look at the comments here it seems to be quite the opposite. Most of us ( well me anyway) dont shoot more than a couple of hundred game cartridges per annum, if it was twice as expensive it wouldn’t bother me. The people getting upset are vermin shooters using high volumes of cartridges, mostly not a factor, since they tend to use modern steel proofed guns, game shooters and guys with lovely old heirloom pieces. Frankly if you can afford to spend 2K on a days shooting you can afford an extra 50 for cartridges, most of you are using modern O/U guns anyway, so what’s the problem.
If you have an older 2-2 1/2’ gun, you have my sympathy but cartridges will still be available, just not lead so its bismuth or hang it on the wall.
Expensive but doable for special occasions.

sounds good, until into the future clay shooting is in decline due to cost of cartridges with steel shot and biodegradable wads are £500 per 1000 and clays 50p each. Speak to any cartridge manufacture and they will tell you clay cartridges are the bread and butter that keeps the factory open, with game cartridges the icing on the cake, and pigeon cartridges a useful bonus. So if clay shooting collapses your game cartridges are going to have to keep the manufacture in business, will it be an extra 50 by then or like bismuth is today?

The global capacity for manufacturing steel shot is not going to suddenly fill the void if ever on a total lead ban across the UK and EU what does supply and demand economics teach you?

 

[Liveonce]

I will answer my own question, since the outbreak of war between Russia and Ukraine, apparently two of the largest suppliers of steel to industry, the price of steel has risen between 200% and 300% and that is if you can buy what you need.

 

[Heym SR20]

For 22rf the fundamental problem is that most 22rf have a 1 in 16” twist rate. There are already a number of options such as the Norma Eco coming into the market which by reviews seem to be reasonably accurate in normal 22rf. Not superb accuracy but 1” at 50 or 75yards. But they are fast and do crack somewhat.

Given the growing need around the world for an effective and cheap plinking and small vermin round a solution will be found.

What is probably needed is a fast rate twist 22 rf barrel to stabilise a subsonic scintered copper / zinc bullet of about 35 to 40grains. Most 22s have pretty easily removable barrels so this could a simple barrel swap solution, or manufacturers can start producing faster twist rates.

Manufacturers have brought a number of rimfire options over the years. The 5mm Mag was the darling of the early 1970’s. The 22 Win Mag has a small but loyal following. The 17 HMR and 17 Mark 2 have their critics snd devotee’s in equal measure. The market is crying out for lead free capable small bore rimfire rifle. Keeping it as a 22rf is probably the least problematic from a legislative perspective.

Alternatively many 223’s now have fast twist 1 in 7, 1 in 8” barrels. Perhaps an immediate solution would be a subsonic non-toxic load for use on rabbits where silence is needed. This would be an expensive option for factory ammo, but pretty cheap as a reload.

And no I am not a major target shooter, shooting many thousands of rounds of ammo a year. But I do enjoy shooting gongs, and our little club range has a simple sand trap behind the targets. Cost - a digger for a couple of days and a lorry load of sand.

And as for rabbits, my 22 Brno has shot several thousand, but on my current permissions hemorragic fever means we haven’t seen any for many years.

 

[Dunwaters]

Did you miss the post about the HSE launching a 2 year consultation on ALL lead ammunition in ALL environments.

“We are gathering information and evidence to support the development of a UK REACH restriction dossier (report) on risks to the environment and human health of the use of lead in ammunition (projectiles) in all habitats in Great Britain (GB; England, Scotland, Wales). Military and non-civilian use of ammunition is excluded.”

UK REACH – restriction proposals 001 - Questions for the call for evidence for the lead shot ammunition - Health and Safety Executive - Citizen Space

Find and participate in consultations run by the Health and Safety Executive

consultations.hse.gov.uk

So UK reach is looking at .22 and everything else!

I missed that one OK.
Wow! Must be a Brexit thing.

 

[UpNorthMI]

It just seems that shooters must like chaos, what appears voluntary, will quickly become mandatory, what were considered exclusions will become inclusions. While great developments are being made in non lead ammunition it also appears that there is a huge shortage of any available ammunition, bullet heads, primers and powder (both lead and non lead). Can supply really support future demand in the short term at an acceptable price level for the end user?

I believe we already accepted the thin end of the wedge, maybe for the right reasons, but the wedge will drive deep and wide, lead will be banned for all forms of shooting, target, clays etc. We will become law breakers just for possessing those old bullets and shells.

There’s certainly no going back.

I hope that the sacrifices that are being made turn out to be a solution to a real and necessary problem as we look back on this issue.

Personally I’m sure I can afford to buy these more expensive options and will continue to shoot but I do think we will cause a decline in the current shooting population, for some it will be cost, for others it will be further hassle and time to quit.

It will be interesting to see how things progress and what the rest of the world do with this issue.

 

[shortshot]

It’s about sale of game meat for human consumption.
If what you just shot is not to be “sold” for human consumption fear not and tell BASC they are barking at the wrong tree.
Lead shot is returning an element back to the soil (recycling)
Shooting plaswads is littering same as discarding empty cartridges in the field or hedge and not really acceptable.
Commercial game shooting has an image problem in modern society but BASC is going to throw the baby out with the bath water in seeking to appease commercial shooting.
Get real BASC brexit divorced the U.K. from blindly following European legislation.
As for copper bullets for deer, any meat premium seems to have melted away like early morning summer mist....appeasing game dealers is rarely a rewarding experience. So who is it who wants no lead in shooting because Joe public really has no interest in whether a pheasant died from being shot with steel or lead pellets.

 

[Liveonce]

For 22rf the fundamental problem is that most 22rf have a 1 in 16” twist rate. There are already a number of options such as the Norma Eco coming into the market which by reviews seem to be reasonably accurate in normal 22rf. Not superb accuracy but 1” at 50 or 75yards. But they are fast and do crack somewhat.

Given the growing need around the world for an effective and cheap plinking and small vermin round a solution will be found.

What is probably needed is a fast rate twist 22 rf barrel to stabilise a subsonic scintered copper / zinc bullet of about 35 to 40grains. Most 22s have pretty easily removable barrels so this could a simple barrel swap solution, or manufacturers can start producing faster twist rates.

Manufacturers have brought a number of rimfire options over the years. The 5mm Mag was the darling of the early 1970’s. The 22 Win Mag has a small but loyal following. The 17 HMR and 17 Mark 2 have their critics snd devotee’s in equal measure. The market is crying out for lead free capable small bore rimfire rifle. Keeping it as a 22rf is probably the least problematic from a legislative perspective.

Alternatively many 223’s now have fast twist 1 in 7, 1 in 8” barrels. Perhaps an immediate solution would be a subsonic non-toxic load for use on rabbits where silence is needed. This would be an expensive option for factory ammo, but pretty cheap as a reload.

And no I am not a major target shooter, shooting many thousands of rounds of ammo a year. But I do enjoy shooting gongs, and our little club range has a simple sand trap behind the targets. Cost - a digger for a couple of days and a lorry load of sand.

And as for rabbits, my 22 Brno has shot several thousand, but on my current permissions hemorragic fever means we haven’t seen any for many years.

A lot of assumptions, manufactures will only produce what sells in quantity, the shooting industry is all about volume, will they make barrels just for the UK for all the many types of .22 rifles? Then they are pressure items so a variation to your FAC to purchase. If it went that way they would sooner sell you a new rifle, better profit in that.
Don’t think just because we put are head in the oven the rest of the world will do likewise Or come to are rescue.

Plenty of rabbits in Kent, if you know where to look

 

[25 Sharps]

I missed that one OK.
Wow! Must be a Brexit thing.

Yeah, its pretty onerous, but every one is fixating on lead shot and deer bullets!!

 

[JTO]

Thinking of costs, a box of Eley Grand Prix was about 13 shillings when I first got a shotgun, about 2 hour's pay for a bricklayer at that time. How much are they earning today?
Killing efficiency of non-lead shot, or lack of it, is the most concerning factor.

 

[25 Sharps]

For 22rf the fundamental problem is that most 22rf have a 1 in 16” twist rate. There are already a number of options such as the Norma Eco coming into the market which by reviews seem to be reasonably accurate in normal 22rf. Not superb accuracy but 1” at 50 or 75yards. But they are fast and do crack somewhat.

Given the growing need around the world for an effective and cheap plinking and small vermin round a solution will be found.

What is probably needed is a fast rate twist 22 rf barrel to stabilise a subsonic scintered copper / zinc bullet of about 35 to 40grains. Most 22s have pretty easily removable barrels so this could a simple barrel swap solution, or manufacturers can start producing faster twist rates.

Manufacturers have brought a number of rimfire options over the years. The 5mm Mag was the darling of the early 1970’s. The 22 Win Mag has a small but loyal following. The 17 HMR and 17 Mark 2 have their critics snd devotee’s in equal measure. The market is crying out for lead free capable small bore rimfire rifle. Keeping it as a 22rf is probably the least problematic from a legislative perspective.

Alternatively many 223’s now have fast twist 1 in 7, 1 in 8” barrels. Perhaps an immediate solution would be a subsonic non-toxic load for use on rabbits where silence is needed. This would be an expensive option for factory ammo, but pretty cheap as a reload.

And no I am not a major target shooter, shooting many thousands of rounds of ammo a year. But I do enjoy shooting gongs, and our little club range has a simple sand trap behind the targets. Cost - a digger for a couple of days and a lorry load of sand.

And as for rabbits, my 22 Brno has shot several thousand, but on my current permissions hemorragic fever means we haven’t seen any for many years.

Growing need around the world? How many US states have banned lead ammunition?

My RFD has these on the shelf Norma ECO Speed-22, he couldn't get them inside 6" at 25 yards in various guns, that is with a 24 grain bullet so a 1:16 should stabilise it.

Rebarrelling 0.22s £800+ for many guns worth £<150.00!!

Subsonic 0.223, again , you are going to need a heavy, heavy bullet say 70-90 gr, in lead free at subsonic speeds!! Firstly, .22 cast bullets are used for subsonic as they can be lubricated, copper bullets with that bearing surface may jam in the barrel; secondly twist rate is only half of the stability equation, speed is the other half so you are going to be needing a 1:5 or so at a guess to stabilise long, lead free, 0.22 bullets (I loaded 120 gr subsonics in the 25-45 sharps, 1:10 twist, they literally went through the target sideways, quiet though!); Finally, cost!! speciality 0.223 ammunition is going to be over £1.00 per round, £2.00 the way things are going, who is going to use that for volume rabbit control! Oh, and they will deform less, bounce more, carry more energy down range further as they will not slow as quickly as a deformed lead bullet. All in all a cracking idea!!

The market isn't crying out for a lead free rimfire ammunition because the vast majority of the world is still quite happy to use lead ammunition and will continue to do so.

Your sand trap is exposed to wildlife and therefore could be a risk, you may not be allowed to use it for lead in 2 years time . . . .

You clearly don't live in the real world.