Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

[enfieldspares]

I see from the Eley website that the Grand Prix "true 2 1/2"" steel loads in 12 bore are a roll turnover finish. And will these overshot wads allow dampness to affect the steel shot? Those of us of a certain age can tell you all about the very well known issue that arose with roll turnover cartridges and overshot wads and why they are now no longer loaded except for very limited uses such as buckshot. And even then some makers now use a plastic overshot wad that shatters on firing.



And whilst on the matter of buckshot what then in non-lead is one expected to replace buckshot with? And pretty much have to be loaded by hand. Which is why the price for these Grand Prix 2 1/2" steel the price from Just Cartridges for Eley Grand Prix steel (30g #4) it is £501 per 1000 whereas the nearest shot soze equivalent Eley Grand Prix lead (30g #5) is £406 per 1000.

 

[Whitefront]

I wonder whether the differences between the digestive systems of the two species play a role in this apparent recklessness?

Or maybe they haven't read the Food Standards Agency advice: Lead-shot game

 

[hendrix's rifle]

The following very basic timeline of events may be helpful to some posters and viewers.

BASC has been fighting lead ammunition bans since they were first proposed in a 1983 Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution report.

The European Chemicals Agency has been reviewing the use of lead ammunition since 2011 and BASC has been supporting the European Federation of Hunting Associations (FACE) in fighting all resulting proposals.

In 2016, the UK government rejected proposals for a lead ban, after a lengthy campaign by BASC and other shooting organisations, with the Secretary of State stating that the findings of the Lead Ammunition Group did not show that the impacts of lead ammunition were significant enough to justify changing government policy.

In 2021 proposals to ban lead ammunition in the European Union were published along similar lines to what has recently been proposed by the UK Health and Safety Executive (HSE) for England, Wales and Scotland. BASC is supporting FACE in fighting the EU proposals and BASC will fight the HSE proposals.

Specifically, BASC will challenge proposed restrictions where there are no viable alternatives to lead, where socio-economic factors mean a transition isn’t appropriate, and where lead can continue to be used in settings that present negligible or no risk; and we will fight for timelines that are realistic and guided by the sector to ensure that the range of lead-free products and their supply can meet market demands.

An over-riding principle is that further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.

Also, from reviewing the HSE proposals and based on feedback from SD members and emails from BASC members etc. there is scant evidence given by HSE to justify its proposals for restrictions on target shooting disciplines.

More information in the links below:

BASC statement on lead ammunition restriction proposals

Read our statement in response to publication of restriction proposals on the outdoor use of lead ammunition in England, Scotland and Wales.

basc.org.uk

Lead ammunition restriction proposals: what happens next? - BASC

Read our overview of the Health and Safety Executive's proposed lead ammunition restrictions in England, Wales and Scotland.

basc.org.uk

What evidence has changed that much since 2016? It doesn't make sense and something isn't adding up...

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Or maybe they haven't read the Food Standards Agency advice: Lead-shot game

It almost seems like you're an anti that's embedded themselves on this site?

 

[Whitefront]

It almost seems like you're an anti that's embedded themselves on this site?

No, I believe in the future of shooting. By contrast, the extreme leadists, arguably, are "useful idiots" inadvertently undermining the future of shooting by tying us to outmoded and discredited toxic ammunition.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

No, I believe in the future of shooting. By contrast, the extreme leadists, arguably, are "useful idiots" inadvertently serving to undermine the future of shooting by tying us to outmoded and discredited toxic ammunition.

The toxic ammo works though
It also works at range whereas lead free doesn't... We have 22 subs in this awful toxic ammo that we can't get in lead free...
This awful toxic ammo that you know, doesn't actually really cause harm and ultimately ends up in the ground where it came from

Fwiw, I do use steel through my shotgun, lead free in rifles doesn't do it for me, be it performance or cost...

 

[countrryboy]

No, I believe in the future of shooting. By contrast, the extreme leadists, arguably, are "useful idiots" inadvertently undermining the future of shooting by tying us to outmoded and discredited toxic ammunition.

The very sad realisation i now have is shooting simply has no future in the UK, wouldn't matter if we shot birds with magic fairy dust, the job is completely f@@ked.

I bet various anti groups are already doing lab tests on all the alternative 'non toxic' shot, just waiting till lead is finally banned and rolling out the next lot of psuedo science.
As usual basc will be caught with it pants down as its far to busy patting itself on the back for wot a jolly good job its doing

Or the picture in some tabloid of some 3rd world kid mining said non toxic shot so a rich 'toff' can have his sport ( the fact that kids the exact same age are being exploited in the same way to mine stuff for electric battery cars will be completely lost on them thou!!)

Before social media was invented i actually thought shooting was winning the propaganda war for once and things were looking quite healthy, now with all these click bait petitons and government/civil service and even conservation agencies/bodies are all so urban minded they just haven't a clue about rual life in uk.

I'd say enjoy as much as u can now as i won't be around all that much longer.

Ps
The amount and type of shooting i do nowadays (as mostly working my mutts) i could very easily switch to steel/copper and notice very little difference apart from getting rid of my S/S and buying my 1st O/U, which is not a big deal they are just cheap S/S anyway. Yes i would miss my 22 but not that many rabbits about here nowadays anyway the amount of vermin ( mostly protected)
So really not a massive deal
But that does not mean it is right or we should of been sold down the river the way we have.

And the saddest part of it by giving up lead the way we have, we don't earn any browny points or a bit of leeway on something else, the normal sane people that would think that way either haven't got a clue in the 1st place or don't actually care, or both.
All it does is show the antis we're there to be shafted and our orgs couldn't fight out of a wet paper bag.
And there already working on the next issue they can weaponise to shaft us some more

 

[Liveonce]

No, I believe in the future of shooting. By contrast, the extreme leadists, arguably, are "useful idiots" inadvertently undermining the future of shooting by tying us to outmoded and discredited toxic ammunition.

i too believe in the future of shooting, shooting for all not just the rich, and am only hanging on to lead where no suitable non toxic replacement is currently available or at an affordable price.

Shooting is in a vulnerable place now, rising prices, lack of cartridges, ammunition, components, significantly delays in the licensing system, a perfect storm.

So any move to ban lead must not jeopardise further the sport and industry that supports it but must work with it via exemptions and sensible transition periods.

 

[Apthorpe]

Perhaps you could identify the source of your information for the above statements?

Rather than listing BASC or other sources which imply this, perhaps it would be more constructive if there was some update you could share on the activities of the Wild Venison Working Group -set up by BASC and other stakeholders to increase the price of venison? Perhaps some people are understandably eliding two issues - the actions of this WVWG and the contemporaneous fact of the major stakeholders to this group all coming out strongly in favour of non-lead ammunition use, not least on the basis that it would strengthen the game meat market. Other than news of its setup, I can find no reference to this group, it appears to have published no meeting minutes nor any other output at all.

“Concerns around the use of lead shot limit the current market for game products” BASC et al (Joint Q&A paper on lead transition statement 2020)

 

[JTO]

BASC has been fighting lead ammunition bans since they were first proposed in a 1983 Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution report.

Were you at the Cheltenham Wildfowling conference when Harradine advocated using steel shot because he had used both lead and steel in America, and couldn't tell the difference? I was.

 

[Heym SR20]

I find it really surprising that waterfowl hunting is still well and alive in the US despite them not be able to use 8 Bores, and have been having to use steel shot since time immemorial. And hunting is alive and well in US States such as California, and in European countries such as Denmark etc.

And saying that lead goes back into the ground from whence it came, is a bit like saying that its perfectly OK to pour waste engine oil onto your farmyard, or that we spread night soil (untreated turds from your bed pan) directly onto our fields, and in particular on our fast growing vegetables, or for that matter its perfectly fine to discharge raw sewage from our drains directly into the rivers and sea. It was perfectly OK to promote cigarrettes and tobacco products and indeed early sodas contained products such as cocain and morphia.

We live in a modern world - as a species we have shat on this planet, and as a species if we want to continue we need to clean up our act considerably. We have already things dramatically from the late 1800's which is after all the lead based bullet technology that we are all still using.

There are those who never will - through greed, ignorance or just plain bloody mindedness. They are mostly of the older generation so this attitude will go the way nature intended. Fortunately younger generations are seeing these effects and are effecting change.

Going back to the question of lead free ammunition, there is a lot of innovation going on. There are many perfectly viable products now on the market. These have been extensively tested by their manufacturers and been tested by the Proof Houses before going on sale.

Fundamentally each of us will have a choice. You can either accept that things will need to change, embrace it, find out what works for you and carry on with the sports, pastimes, or the way of life that you have chosen.

Or you can throw your toys out of the toy basket, sell everything at a discount and take up golf.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

I find it really surprising that waterfowl hunting is still well and alive in the US despite them not be able to use 8 Bores, and have been having to use steel shot since time immemorial. And hunting is alive and well in US States such as California, and in European countries such as Denmark etc.

And saying that lead goes back into the ground from whence it came, is a bit like saying that its perfectly OK to pour waste engine oil onto your farmyard, or that we spread night soil (untreated turds from your bed pan) directly onto our fields, and in particular on our fast growing vegetables, or for that matter its perfectly fine to discharge raw sewage fro our drains directly into the rivers and sea.

We live in a modern world - as a species we have shat on this planet, and as a species if we want to continue we need to clean up our act considerably.

There are those who never will - through greed, ignorance or just plain bloody mindedness. They are mostly of the older generation so this attitude will go the way nature intended. Fortunately younger generations are seeing these effects and are effecting change.

Majority of these 'younger generation' are millennial snowflakes who once have destroyed shooting will continue on their warpath and destroy anything else...

I'm quite correct that lead literally comes out of the ground no? Where are all these dead raptors that are most susceptible to lead poisoning? As far as I'm concerned they are blooming... We will no doubt be in a position before long being over run by them like we are the lovable badger...


I will embrace change quite happily, as soon as they make things usable, which they currently are not.
No 22 subs in lead free.
The price for lead free is shocking, especially if you're not just shooting deer like the 'pro lead free' on here seem to not realise. There are numerous rifles that WILL be scrapped when the ban comes. There are numerous shooters that WILL quit when the ban comes, be it down to cost or anything else.

The 'future generations' that many talk about and the need to get them on board is getting slimmer and slimmer. I don't get why people can't get a grip of that side of things?

 

[Heym SR20]

A couple of very useful factsheets on what cartridges you can and cannot use. There are steel cartridges that can be used in the vast majority of shotguns that are out there. There is no need to get rid of your favoured side by side and change it for a nasty over and under, or worse a semi auto.

From the Gun trade association

https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/1094678/GTA_factsheet_shootingnonlead_ver102.pdf

and from one of the oldest makers of guns out there

https://www.purdey.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/The-Use-of-Lead-and-Non-Toxic-Steel-Shot-in-the-UK.-A-Guide-for-Purdey-Customers-1.pdf

 

[Liveonce]

SAAMI do not set a maximum velocity for steel shot in America unlike CIP for the U.K., hence you are not comparing like with like. For obvious reasons the faster you can drive steel shot the better, they also like their 3.5inch autos rather than fine english side by sides.

As for Denmark it is i am told mainly flat and their hunting coarse for licences preach a maximum range of 30yards for wing shooting, then they have the significant issue of plastic wad pollution which is why they are now considering a legal ban on plastic single use wads.

If you want to compare countries then in 2015 Norway reversed its ban on lead shot.

 

[Liveonce]

HSE proposal response

The GTA will be making the strongest response on all fronts. We will also be working with the shooting organisations to ensure we have a clear, unified voice. We have already seen what harm can be caused by some going their own way on transition. We must now mitigate the damage that could be caused and find ways to ensure that shooting can continue - and keep our businesses protected.

 

[Heym SR20]

Majority of these 'younger generation' are millennial snowflakes who once have destroyed shooting will continue on their warpath and destroy anything else...

I'm quite correct that lead literally comes out of the ground no? Where are all these dead raptors that are most susceptible to lead poisoning? As far as I'm concerned they are blooming... We will no doubt be in a position before long being over run by them like we are the lovable badger...


I will embrace change quite happily, as soon as they make things usable, which they currently are not.
No 22 subs in lead free.
The price for lead free is shocking, especially if you're not just shooting deer like the 'pro lead free' on here seem to not realise. There are numerous rifles that WILL be scrapped when the ban comes. There are numerous shooters that WILL quit when the ban comes, be it down to cost or anything else.

The 'future generations' that many talk about and the need to get them on board is getting slimmer and slimmer. I don't get why people can't get a grip of that side of things?

Most lead is in fact mined. It comes out of rock seems, in the same way as things like gold, tin and other metals. It is not generally freely available in the soil.

And I am sorry I don't agree that price of lead free is shocking. Ammunition prices are shocking in general - thats true. Lead free hunting bullets are, or should be, price at about £1 a bullet. If you paying more than that then order from somewhere else such as @Edinburgh Rifles. Loaded ammunition is around £40 a box depending on bullet, brand and calibre - about the same as other premium bullets. There are now lead free target bullets available. These are about 50p each - about the same as old cup and core lead bullets.

Shotgun cartridges - standard steel and about the same price as normal cartridges. Yes High Velocity, premium, magnum or paper cased varnished rolled top cartridges are all silly money whatever shot they are using. So are 410, 16 and 28 bore cartridges, again doesn't matter what shot.

And as for the youngsters - there are plenty coming into shooting, and also plenty who want to embrace hunt it, shoot it, eat it type mentality. But I don't blame them if they are turned off by a few shooters and some, now increasingly rare, shooting and shoot management practices. Most of these "Snowflakes" get their info from Packham et al. It doesn't take much to turn them around - a good venison steak normally does it.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Most lead is in fact mined. It comes out of rock seems, in the same way as things like gold, tin and other metals. It is not generally freely available in the soil.

And I am sorry I don't agree that price of lead free is shocking. Ammunition prices are shocking in general - thats true. Lead free hunting bullets are, or should be, price at about £1 a bullet. If you paying more than that then order from somewhere else such as @Edinburgh Rifles. Loaded ammunition is around £40 a box depending on bullet, brand and calibre - about the same as other premium bullets. There are now lead free target bullets available. These are about 50p each - about the same as old cup and core lead bullets.

Shotgun cartridges - standard steel and about the same price as normal cartridges. Yes High Velocity, premium, magnum or paper cased varnished rolled top cartridges are all silly money whatever shot they are using. So are 410, 16 and 28 bore cartridges, again doesn't matter what shot.

And as for the youngsters - there are plenty coming into shooting, and also plenty who want to embrace hunt it, shoot it, eat it type mentality. But I don't blame them if they are turned off by a few shooters and some, now increasingly rare, shooting and shoot management practices. Most of these "Snowflakes" get their info from Packham et al. It doesn't take much to turn them around - a good venison steak normally does it.

15 years ago i was paying £48 for a box of 130gn barnes TTSX the price now is £55 the price has hardly moved, plus with the factory offerings from Edinbrough rifles, non lead is completely affordable

 

[hendrix's rifle]

15 years ago i was paying £48 for a box of 130gn barnes TTSX the price now is £55 the price has hardly moved, plus with the factory offerings from Edinbrough rifles, non lead is completely affordable

Yes, It is, to someone that ONLY shoots deer. For target shooters or vermin shooters, it really isn't is it... I've said that a number of times before.
Once the 22lr has gone (no decent lead free alternatives) it will be a job for a small centre fire capable of using lead free accurately. That gets real expensive real quick....

 

[Liveonce]

The loss of the .22lr in subsonic without a satisfactory alternative will be a disaster.

 

[Apthorpe]

The loss of the .22lr in subsonic without a satisfactory alternative will be a disaster.

………for the environment and wildlife.