Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

[Ratel]

I find it really surprising that waterfowl hunting is still well and alive in the US despite them not be able to use 8 Bores, and have been having to use steel shot since time immemorial. And hunting is alive and well in US States such as California, and in European countries such as Denmark etc.

And saying that lead goes back into the ground from whence it came, is a bit like saying that its perfectly OK to pour waste engine oil onto your farmyard, or that we spread night soil (untreated turds from your bed pan) directly onto our fields, and in particular on our fast growing vegetables, or for that matter its perfectly fine to discharge raw sewage from our drains directly into the rivers and sea. It was perfectly OK to promote cigarrettes and tobacco products and indeed early sodas contained products such as cocain and morphia.

We live in a modern world - as a species we have shat on this planet, and as a species if we want to continue we need to clean up our act considerably. We have already things dramatically from the late 1800's which is after all the lead based bullet technology that we are all still using.

There are those who never will - through greed, ignorance or just plain bloody mindedness. They are mostly of the older generation so this attitude will go the way nature intended. Fortunately younger generations are seeing these effects and are effecting change.

Going back to the question of lead free ammunition, there is a lot of innovation going on. There are many perfectly viable products now on the market. These have been extensively tested by their manufacturers and been tested by the Proof Houses before going on sale.

Fundamentally each of us will have a choice. You can either accept that things will need to change, embrace it, find out what works for you and carry on with the sports, pastimes, or the way of life that you have chosen.

Or you can throw your toys out of the toy basket, sell everything at a discount and take up golf.

Tell your second and third paragraphs to the Chinese, Russians and most Asian countries, before saying what we should do.

 

[Heym SR20]

Tell your second and third paragraphs to the Chinese, Russians and most Asian countries, before saying what we should do.

Just because others **** on their own carpets, doesn’t mean that we should **** in ours.

We are unable to tell other countries what they should do - even though some still think we can and the map is still coloured pink and that world takes notice of Britain. They don’t.

 

[Dunwaters]

I think it's incompatibility with rifling. Now it may be that air weapons might have to go down the route of polygon rifling like was used by Heckler and Koch on some pistols? Rifling does "evolve" in that we no longer use Metford style rifling in rifles since smokeless powder and jacketed bullets but used Enfield style rifling. And yes maybe twist rates need revising? For certain I can remember the old plastic skirt non-lead (copper or steel) Prometheus pellets that didn't group either. Let us hope that BASC is doing tests! They are "the authoritative voice of shooting"!

For me requiring a new barrel to continue to use .22 effectively and competitively would be a red line. There are 100’s of thousands old .22’s still working away at what they were designed to do nearly a century after they were made, making them obsolete by banning compatible ammunition will result in most of them being scrapped.
.22 ammo deserves to be exempted from the ban at least until theres agreement on a new cartridge specification for international competition.

 

[StephenToast]

I tried a few rounds non lead through the .22 and they were truly abysmal, but I don’t know whether that’s an intrinsic problem due incompatibility with rifling and twist or down to quality control issues, hopefully its the latter, in which case theres major improvements coming soon.

I have been using the RWS tin stuff through my BSA lightning for about 18 months, maybe more.

I haven't had any trouble at all with them.

Shooting rabbits, pigeons etc 30ish yards.

Not noticed any windage issues. I have never really worried about expension with airgun pellets as I mostly headshoot. I never found lead pellets to have any expansion eithet so not sure why that would be a consideration? Maybe it's more important in FAC airguns?

 

[Rewulf]

I find it really surprising that waterfowl hunting is still well and alive in the US despite them not be able to use 8 Bores, and have been having to use steel shot since time immemorial. And hunting is alive and well in US States such as California, and in European countries such as Denmark etc.

Time immemorial ? Since the 80s you mean ?
Plus it has hardly effected wildfowl shooting , as most people ignore the lead ban.

And saying that lead goes back into the ground from whence it came, is a bit like saying that its perfectly OK to pour waste engine oil onto your farmyard, or that we spread night soil (untreated turds from your bed pan) directly onto our fields, and in particular on our fast growing vegetables, or for that matter its perfectly fine to discharge raw sewage from our drains directly into the rivers and sea. It was perfectly OK to promote cigarrettes and tobacco products and indeed early sodas contained products such as cocain and morphia.

Im not sure you quite grasp how it all works, you have heard of muck spreading , or perhaps observe the fact that virtually all animals, birds and insects, yes even the fish in rivers and sea, deposit their waste DIRECTLY back into the environment.
Why , Ive seen some humans do just this, and yet , the world seems relatively healthy for these gifts, and has been for millions of years ?

For me requiring a new barrel to continue to use .22 effectively and competitively would be a red line. There are 100’s of thousands old .22’s still working away at what they were designed to do nearly a century after they were made, making them obsolete by banning compatible ammunition will result in most of them being scrapped.
.22 ammo deserves to be exempted from the ban at least until theres agreement on a new cartridge specification for international competition.

Hang on a minute,, You said we had to suck it up and think of the environment , but you want to keep your lead spitting .22lr ?
No way matey , thats gotta go too, think of the condors !

The dispensation for target shooters wont wash, as target ammo , can be used for vermin , over the land, and will result in a land use ban being ineffective, just the same as clay loads could be used for pigeon or other game, and we cant have that lead being shot all over the countryside can we ?

Expect these arguments for a total lead ban, and always be careful of what you wish for.

 

[Heym SR20]

For me requiring a new barrel to continue to use .22 effectively and competitively would be a red line. There are 100’s of thousands old .22’s still working away at what they were designed to do nearly a century after they were made, making them obsolete by banning compatible ammunition will result in most of them being scrapped.
.22 ammo deserves to be exempted from the ban at least until theres agreement on a new cartridge specification for international competition.

No need for scrapping older rifles. There is a perfectly simple way to relign rimfire barrels to give a faster twist and these days of good epoxies you don’t need to use solder like in the days of Parker rifling. Alternatively you could have a prethreaded barrel which means old barrel unscrewed new barrel screwed on.

Walther make 22 tubes for religning barrels. They were a touch over £100 when I looked into religning a rook rifle. With a purpose designed drill bit that rides down the existing rifling the whole system is pretty quick and simple, meaning it would be cost effective for those older heirlooms that are still in use.

 

[enfieldspares]

I never found lead pellets to have any expansion eithet so not sure why that would be a consideration? Maybe it's more important in FAC airguns?

Aha! Try back garden practice with the standard flat metal target holder and you might find that, literally, "getting your own back" isn't welcomed! Lead pellets expand and flatten on the back plate. Tin pellets come back and say "Hello" to you!

 

[25 Sharps]

I have been using the RWS tin stuff through my BSA lightning for about 18 months, maybe more.

I haven't had any trouble at all with them.

Shooting rabbits, pigeons etc 30ish yards.

Not noticed any windage issues. I have never really worried about expension with airgun pellets as I mostly headshoot. I never found lead pellets to have any expansion eithet so not sure why that would be a consideration? Maybe it's more important in FAC airguns?

Crap through my FAC

 

[enfieldspares]

Tin v Lead air pellets.

 

[Ratel]

Just because others **** on their own carpets, doesn’t mean that we should **** in ours.

We are unable to tell other countries what they should do - even though some still think we can and the map is still coloured pink and that world takes notice of Britain. They don’t.

Absolute waste of time trying to reduce our minescule bit, it makes no difference. The youngsters need educating ref too much wrapping in plastic, plastic bottles etc. Have a look at "Plastic island" in the Pacific.

 

[StephenToast]

Aha! Try back garden practice with the standard flat metal target holder and you might find that, literally, "getting your own back" isn't welcomed! Lead pellets expand and flatten on the back plate. Tin pellets come back and say "Hello" to you!

Yeah I don't shoot targets on a metal holder fair enough. I have a whole farm that acts as my pellet catcher.

 

[25 Sharps]

Yeah I don't shoot targets on a metal holder fair enough. I have a whole farm that acts as my pellet catcher.

I’m alright jack, pull the ladder up!

 

[Mike L]

Yeah I don't shoot targets on a metal holder fair enough. I have a whole farm that acts as my pellet catcher.

I bet I make loads more money than you................. We are playing one upmanship aren't we?

 

[StephenToast]

I bet I make loads more money than you................. We are playing one upmanship aren't we?

Not sure where you went with that one.

 

[StephenToast]

I’m alright jack, pull the ladder up!

That's not what I was saying at all. I was agreeing with Enfield and saying that the reason I hadn't had that problem was that I don't affix my targets to a flat piece of metal.

That said. I am alright as it happens.

 

[25 Sharps]

That's not what I was saying at all. I was agreeing with Enfield and saying that the reason I hadn't had that problem was that I don't affix my targets to a flat piece of metal.

That said. I am alright as it happens.

Fair enough. Me too. But plenty who shoot air guns aren’t.

Did you watch the video, pretty conclusive that the pellets are nowhere near as good as lead at anything over 10 metres, they’re likely be worse in FAC

 

[StephenToast]

Fair enough. Me too. But plenty who shoot air guns aren’t.

Did you watch the video, pretty conclusive that the pellets are nowhere near as good as lead at anything over 10 metres, they’re likely be worse in FAC

I didn't. But as I said. They work for me at 30yds. So it's not conclusive really.

 

[25 Sharps]

I didn't. But as I said. They work for me at 30yds. So it's not conclusive really.

Can you post an honest picture of a 10 shot group at 30 yards please? ‘Alright’ is quite subjective

 

[StephenToast]

Can you post an honest picture of a 10 shot group at 30 yards please? ‘Alright’ is quite subjective

The next time I have the rifle out... And have time/can be bothered I'll try to remember.

I don't think I've ever shot a 10 round group but I'd expect 5rds to be in a grouo the size of a £1 coin which is about the same as the lead BSA pellets I was using before .

 

[25 Sharps]

The next time I have the rifle out... And have time/can be bothered I'll try to remember.

I don't think I've ever shot a 10 round group but I'd expect 5rds to be in a grouo the size of a £1 coin which is about the same as the lead BSA pellets I was using before .

To be fair BSA pellets probably aren’t the best comparison for accuracy.

I would definitely be interested to see a 10 shot group.