8% reduction in certificate holders in England and Wales

[Greenmist]

Well that rather is the point, past health issues are irrelevant as that time has gone and really what the police would like to know is if you will develop some issue over the forthcoming duration of the certificate. Apart from the marker on the GP records the rest of the new medical stuff serves no useful purpose.

Apologies, I think I've replied to your post out of context, I fully agree, the old system of nothing since last application was more efficient, add the marker system to that and it should be fit for purpose

 

[Greenmist]

A number of your points are incorrect.
Some forces do have an online form 201.
Radio check only checks local system and pnc. It doesn't go into detail it doesn't need to so no Intel from other forces and no special branch check. Theses are required for grants and renewals
Not all land checks need to be physically completed but some do especially if its new bit of land. One police officer in 40,000 has said they don't want to do it, again irrelevant across England Wales there are virtually no officers within licensing departments. I would suspect based on my expirence there may be around ten cops nationally. If it was that straightforward they would change it. Steps are in place to try and eliminate some aspects of the process. However grants and renewals are only a portion of the workload of licensing departments.

My point is, policing on the whole has moved with the times, anpr, forensics, intel gathering, drug tests, finger prints, dna, better equipment for officers, I could go on,firearms licensing is steam powered by comparison

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@Conor O'Gorman I am a member of BASC, all your posts are in relation to England and Wales, do you have any data for Scotland ?
After all you are the British Association not the English and Welsh Association.

Police Scotland publishes annual firearms licensing statistics and the results of annual satisfaction surveys here:

Firearms and Explosives Licensing - Police Scotland

Information relating to licensing, applications and what the law says about firearms and explosives licensing in Scotland.

www.scotland.police.uk

 

[Husky]

@Conor O'Gorman, thanks

 

[SouNorHunt]

Would you expect a driving licence or a passport to be similarly costed? And what about benefit claims, should they also reflect the cost to the taxpayer with the possibility that the processing cost exceeds the size of the claim?

Benefit claims are not in the same category of service so you would expect a different economic model so I wouldn’t consider that relevant to this post.
In short my point was that any purchase where operating expense per unit is greater than consumer purchase price per unit is positive to the consumer, detrimental to the provider.
For me applying for the first time I don’t have a view on whether the price is right or wrong, only that I was expecting it to be more expensive than it is as I would perceive that with physical visits etc the operating expense is high - especially when compared as you say to a passport which is almost the same price but I would guess has a lot lower expense

 

[Tikka250]

However the recent event in Plymouth kicked off the Doctors certificate business, which also throws another spanner into the works.


Those applying should be able to apply for their own medical records and produce them when the FEO visits for them to view.

Medical reports were required in Scotland long before the Plymouth tragedy. I re-newed in 2018 and I required one then.

FEO's are very likely not qualified to interpret medical records, in addition, there are contents of medical records which are not divulged, even to the subject, so the subject can't request their medical records.
If you'd like to see your medical records it's usually done on appointment with your GP/other health professional.
Also, licensing require 'relevant' conditions and information. Would you really want your FEO knowing you're receiving Oestrogen injections when you're a bloke and its nothing to do with them why you're receiving a female hormone? There are perfectly legitimate reasons why you might be receiving Oestrogen hormone injections but you might also have body dysmorphia which is a mental disorder. They will ALWAYS err on the side of caution.

Everyone who commits an atrocity with a gun, is according to most of the public, including shooters, a 'psychopath' or 'mentally ill'. Jake Davison was neither but I wouldn't have given him a water pistol!

 

[Rewulf]

Would you really want your FEO knowing you're receiving Oestrogen injections when you're a bloke and its nothing to do with them why you're receiving a female hormone? There are perfectly legitimate reasons why you might be receiving Oestrogen hormone injections but you might also have body dysmorphia which is a mental disorder.

A bit of a random one that, but lets look at it sensibly.
IF it was revealed you were taking oestrogen for body dysmorphia , or as part of a transition (there are other reasons unconnected) why would that be a concern for the police ?
Body dysmorphia is a condition that likely affects a huge percentage of the population to some extent, but is rarely diagnosed properly.
The transitioning part should really be no bar to owning a firearm, lest discrimination proceedings kick in.

Everyone who commits an atrocity with a gun, is according to most of the public, including shooters, a 'psychopath' or 'mentally ill'. Jake Davison was neither but I wouldn't have given him a water pistol!

Davison was diagnosed with autism and ADHD as a child and attended Mount Tamar school for special needs children.[24] He was a regular visitor to Shetland, where he spent long periods of time with his mother's relatives; it was there that initial concerns were raised about his mental state.[25] In 2016, Davison was reported to the police for allegedly attacking a man and his pregnant girlfriend not far from where the shooting would occur; Davison was warned by police but not prosecuted.[26] A close source to the family said that Davison had recently deteriorated after suffering from mental health problems for most of his life, and that his mother was "begging for help from the authorities but nobody did a welfare check".[27] During the UK's COVID-19 lockdowns in the eighteen months before the shooting, Davison had accessed a local mental health support charity.[28]

 

[Klenchblaize]

Everyone who commits an atrocity with a gun, is according to most of the public, including shooters, a 'psychopath' or 'mentally ill'. Jake Davison was neither but I wouldn't have given him a water pistol!

This is why the FEO home visit is so important IMHO and should be conducted by a person given of a certain intellect and experience of dealing with people. Hence why you shouldn’t be surprised if he/she is a former serving Police Officer.

Gaining the measure of the Applicant will be of a far higher priority than establishing if they’ve used M12 or M10 cabinet fixings.

K

 

[Tikka250]

A bit of a random one that, but lets look at it sensibly.
IF it was revealed you were taking oestrogen for body dysmorphia , or as part of a transition (there are other reasons unconnected) why would that be a concern for the police ?
Body dysmorphia is a condition that likely affects a huge percentage of the population to some extent, but is rarely diagnosed properly.
The transitioning part should really be no bar to owning a firearm, lest discrimination proceedings kick in.

Davison was diagnosed with autism and ADHD as a child and attended Mount Tamar school for special needs children.[24] He was a regular visitor to Shetland, where he spent long periods of time with his mother's relatives; it was there that initial concerns were raised about his mental state.[25] In 2016, Davison was reported to the police for allegedly attacking a man and his pregnant girlfriend not far from where the shooting would occur; Davison was warned by police but not prosecuted.[26] A close source to the family said that Davison had recently deteriorated after suffering from mental health problems for most of his life, and that his mother was "begging for help from the authorities but nobody did a welfare check".[27] During the UK's COVID-19 lockdowns in the eighteen months before the shooting, Davison had accessed a local mental health support charity.[28]

Looking at it sensibly...It may help to read my posts - I didn't say Oestrogen was for the treatment of BDD. The point I made of Oestrogen was its irrelevant to the enquiry but if an individual has their medical records then the fact that someone is prescribed Oestrogen is for the FEO to also view.
Body dysmorphia (BDD) is a mental disdorder. Nothing to do with transitioning from male to female or vice versa or why the cops would be interested in that. BDD also causes depressive and anxious symptoms. Other symptoms can include self-cutting the offending body part(s) off (the FEO might want to know about that too) and suicidal ideatio, perhaps made somewhat easier with 165 grain bullet at 2600fps!

Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD)

NHS information and advice about body dysmorphic disorder (BDD or body dysmorphia), including what the symptoms are and what can help.

www.nhs.uk

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/body-dysmorphic-disorder-bdd/about-bdd/

Autism and ADHD are not mental illnesses, they are neuro-developmental disorders characterised by behaviours and difficulties learning. If Davison had a mental illness, he wouldn't be a crane operator!

ADHD and mental health - ADHD Aware

In the UK, ADHD is recognised by the NHS as a ‘neurobehavioural’ condition, meaning that the primary focus of the NHS is treating it as a neurodevelopmental condition with consequences on behaviour. Despite being classified as a neurodevelopmental mental health condition, most experts and...

adhdaware.org.uk

Is Autism a Mental Illness?

Symptoms of autism spectrum disorder can resemble behaviors of other types of mental illness. Learn more about the differences.

www.verywellhealth.com

 

[Tikka250]

This is why the FEO home visit is so important IMHO and should be conducted by a person given of a certain intellect and experience of dealing with people. Hence why you shouldn’t be surprised if he/she is a former serving Police Officer.

Gaining the measure of the Applicant will be of a far higher priority than establishing if they’ve used M12 or M10 cabinet fixings.

K

100% agree and I fully support home visits

 

[Rewulf]

Looking at it sensibly...It may help to read my posts - I didn't say Oestrogen was for the treatment of BDD. The point I made of Oestrogen was its irrelevant to the enquiry but if an individual has their medical records then the fact that someone is prescribed Oestrogen is for the FEO to also view.
Body dysmorphia (BDD) is a mental disdorder. Nothing to do with transitioning from male to female or vice versa or why the cops would be interested in that. BDD also causes depressive and anxious symptoms. Other symptoms can include self-cutting the offending body part(s) off (the FEO might want to know about that too) and suicidal ideatio, perhaps made somewhat easier with 165 grain bullet at 2600fps!

You seem to have got rather excited about some what ifs and buts , and taken your BDD and oestrogen use into fantasy territory
Talk about over complicating the matter!
Pointless arguing about it , but if an FEO sees a man taking oestrogen, he doesnt necessarily have the medical knowledge, or the reason to extrapolate that to suicide by firearm !!

Autism and ADHD are not mental illnesses, they are neuro-developmental disorders characterised by behaviours and difficulties learning. If Davison had a mental illness, he wouldn't be a crane operator!

I didnt say they were , but as a consequence of the two conditions , as was clearly stated in my quoted wiki piece , his mental health was severely affected to the point where his own family requested help with it.
To think that his GP had no knowledge of this deteriation is frankly unbelievable , and grossly negligent.
And thats before we get to the FEOs interraction and subsequent councilling for his assaults ?

 

[Tikka250]

You seem to have got rather excited about some what ifs and buts , and taken your BDD and oestrogen use into fantasy territory
Talk about over complicating the matter!
Pointless arguing about it , but if an FEO sees a man taking oestrogen, he doesnt necessarily have the medical knowledge, or the reason to extrapolate that to suicide by firearm !!

I didnt say they were , but as a consequence of the two conditions , as was clearly stated in my quoted wiki piece , his mental health was severely affected to the point where his own family requested help with it.
To think that his GP had no knowledge of this deteriation is frankly unbelievable , and grossly negligent.
And thats before we get to the FEOs interraction and subsequent councilling for his assaults ?

I've taken to the 'fantasy' territory because I'm a registered health professional and I work in psychiatry; a specialised area of psychiatry and I know what I'm talking about! It's not fantasy at all, it's factual and it happens! You should get me talking about capacity and getting people to do things against their will!
You call it fantasy because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Rewulf]

You call it fantasy because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Im sure you do know what youre talking about, but like I say extrapolate how many people with the conditions youve mentioned into firearm deaths, and it might make your argument more convincing ?
Im not saying you werent talking sense , I just think you used bad examples.

 

[Tikka250]

Im sure you do know what youre talking about, but like I say extrapolate how many people with the conditions youve mentioned into firearm deaths, and it might make your argument more convincing ?
Im not saying you werent talking sense , I just think you used bad examples.

I'm not arguing, I'm far better than argue with someone who can't argue back on the same level. That would be very unfair on you and I'm a nice guy. As far as making my 'argument' more convincing, I don't have to -
A) I wasn't arguing,
B) It's only you who seems to have an issue with what I've typed,
C) Nothing I've said is ambiguous.
The examples I used were illustrative. It's quite simple really. You don't want anyone knowing the content of your medical records beyond what they need to know and if they don't know, they'll make assumptions.

Granted, I may have used better examples, but I thought everyone on here was reasonably educated and could make distinctions and use relevant information. I'm really sorry if you couldn't and I will be mindful of that in the future.

 

[Jeff8861]

Medical reports were required in Scotland long before the Plymouth tragedy. I re-newed in 2018 and I required one then.

FEO's are very likely not qualified to interpret medical records, in addition, there are contents of medical records which are not divulged, even to the subject, so the subject can't request their medical records.
If you'd like to see your medical records it's usually done on appointment with your GP/other health professional.
Also, licensing require 'relevant' conditions and information. Would you really want your FEO knowing you're receiving Oestrogen injections when you're a bloke and its nothing to do with them why you're receiving a female hormone? There are perfectly legitimate reasons why you might be receiving Oestrogen hormone injections but you might also have body dysmorphia which is a mental disorder. They will ALWAYS err on the side of caution.

Everyone who commits an atrocity with a gun, is according to most of the public, including shooters, a 'psychopath' or 'mentally ill'. Jake Davison was neither but I wouldn't have given him a water pistol!

The symtons ailements you described are not required to be disclosed so have no bearing. Yet again folk making comments that have no relevance

 

[Jeff8861]

Apologies, I think I've replied to your post out of context, I fully agree, the old system of nothing since last application was more efficient, add the marker system to that and it should be fit for purpose

Marker system has been in place for years

 

[stevec]

On the falling numbers, I have a couple of friends who have surrendered thier SGCs as they haven't used their guns for 10 years plus and two friends who have surrender their certificates as their wives will not allow guns in the house. Both now using estate rifles. I think amongst my group of friends a significant number have given up over the last ten years and their children have no interest at all.

Seems to be the same with other hobbies as well, so not just confined to shooting. Our local rugby and cricket clubs are struggling for numbers, as are equestrian clubs and other sports clubs. I think a lot of it is due to a fall in participation sports. I remember reading that something similar happened at the turn of the last century.

The shoot I used to beat on as a boy has now folded. There were only two of us involved under 40 20 years ago and I think of those guns at the time only one has a son or daughter who shoots now.

 

[Mike L]

Marker system has been in place for years

Digital?

 

[Rewulf]

I'm not arguing, I'm far better than argue with someone who can't argue back on the same level. That would be very unfair on you and I'm a nice guy.

Really?

It's only you who seems to have an issue with what I've typed

I wouldn't even call it an issue.
Bad examples as you've admitted.

You don't want anyone knowing the content of your medical records beyond what they need to know and if they don't know, they'll make assumptions

They aren't allowed to make assumptions, and as Jeff has pointed out, your examples aren't relevant.

Granted, I may have used better examples, but I thought everyone on here was reasonably educated and could make distinctions and use relevant information. I'm really sorry if you couldn't and I will be mindful of that in the future

I see your nice guy status doesn't include being a condescending know it all, who really doesn't

 

[Tikka250]

The symtons ailements you described are not required to be disclosed so have no bearing. Yet again folk making comments that have no relevance

Give that man a cuddly toy!

Correct! They're not required but you hand an FEO a medical record to browse and EVERYTHING becomes relevant and hence it's a terribly bad, bad, BAD idea to have your medical records to show an FEO!

Yet again, people not reading the thread and posts properly and blaming others for their own ineptness...