levigsp
Well-Known Member
Well i test everything and then retest and I assure you its correct,
You might be surprised by how much one grain of certain powders behind hard shot like tss can raise the pressure!
"Pattern fails before penetration"- Is this the case now with Steel shot?
- Thread starter HistoricBore
- Start date
You might be surprised by how much one grain of certain powders behind hard shot like tss can raise the pressure!
levigsp
Well-Known Member
So. that is why we do not have cip cartridges loaded with tss and why hand loaders weigh the shot and powder exactly. factory loaded steel and lead has a large margin of error.
but we do, do we not
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levigsp
Well-Known Member
Shows me you dont read what people say! Tungsten matrix is nowhere near as heavy as the tss, and nowhere near as hard.but we do, do we not
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over the years tungsten based shot has been available in different densities and shapes, some was far from round.
However it all contains tungsten, together with other materials to bind it together.
From memory it was between 10.5 to 18 gm/c3. All being heavier than lead.
TSS is tungsten blinded with iron and is the heaviest of the lot.
But just stop and think about it the claim is 1grain of additional powder degrades a pattern on every shot by 77% from a firearm that is a scatter gun by the very nature of the beast.
Sorry regardless of a few gm/c3 difference in mass of the shot, such repeatability shot to shot is I believe just not possible.
But post the proof house reports for the same cartridges but plus and minus 1grain of powder and a video of the test firing of the patterns and I will then concede i am wrong.
However it all contains tungsten, together with other materials to bind it together.
From memory it was between 10.5 to 18 gm/c3. All being heavier than lead.
TSS is tungsten blinded with iron and is the heaviest of the lot.
But just stop and think about it the claim is 1grain of additional powder degrades a pattern on every shot by 77% from a firearm that is a scatter gun by the very nature of the beast.
Sorry regardless of a few gm/c3 difference in mass of the shot, such repeatability shot to shot is I believe just not possible.
But post the proof house reports for the same cartridges but plus and minus 1grain of powder and a video of the test firing of the patterns and I will then concede i am wrong.
He is obviously just another arm chair expert spouting bull****. steel shoots a tighter pattern than lead because the shot is totally uniform and in a heavy duty wad ( much tougher / stiffer than a lead shotcup) . No interest whatsoever especially so if no other members have set him straight . You hardly ever get fluke two- fors with steel unless your on very open chokes , small shot and are stupid enough to shoot at tightly packed incommers . I have NEVER had a bird in a totally different position drop along with the one i shot at with steel and that's thousands of shots taken . I have had it with lead a fair bit though .
Stalker-of-the-deer
Well-Known Member
I've shot lots of steel and have no issue with it. Just reign your targets back 10 yards and you can kill comfortable out to 40/50 yards dependant on cartridge.
I used 42 gram steel bb through my 10 bore last year and was killing the exact same geese as the boys next to me using lead were.
There's so much bull about steel, I see no issues with the stuff if its in a DECENT cartridge.
I used 42 gram steel bb through my 10 bore last year and was killing the exact same geese as the boys next to me using lead were.
There's so much bull about steel, I see no issues with the stuff if its in a DECENT cartridge.
One on top of two
Well-Known Member
As the gentleman above says. So much rubbish spoken about this subject over the years.
I personally love fast steel. And have been using for about 7-8 yrs on and off. pigeons /crows/ rooks you name It. All I ever use is 28/30 of 5 with a slack half ( 3/8th )
does the job easily.
there’s no dark art to steel.
farrieral
Well-Known Member
Buy a slab and get it shot. 32g 3s in steel pattern grand and kill 40/50 pheasants no problem. Only folks who may notice is the "extreme bird" lot.... but having picked up on a few such estates even using lead there's more pricked birds than not... my dogs never had to work so hard on runners 
so for me, pulling the ranges in that 10, 15 or even 20 yards will be better practice anyway 
so for me, pulling the ranges in that 10, 15 or even 20 yards will be better practice anyway 
HistoricBore
Well-Known Member
This has been an interesting exchange of views, and may I thank all who wrote in. I am coming to the conclusion that for my two lead-free days in SW Scotland I need to leave my old Webley at home and instead take my 'modern' Nikko 12 bore with 2 3/4 inch chambers, plus a slab of Hull 70mm cartridges. We will see...
HB
the old heavy shot was as random as welding spatter in size and shape . Pattern also random , steel patterns are brilliant .
choke should be tested with the shells you are purchasing or those you are making , 12 bore super magnums are bored oversize before the choke and they can be fussy to pattern well without testing the pattern you wont ever know . 36 gram number 1 steel 36 gram is the safest choice and kills geese just fine . 10 bores are true size and handle steel in the larger sizes very well indeed 42 gram BBB my favourite with alliant steel powder faster than CIP but fine on pressures veryfied by the proof . I have two ten bores up for sale in the classifieds and i have lots of cartridges
Exactly!
One on top of two
Well-Known Member
I’m fact I’m out on the rooks this glorious morning
HistoricBore
Well-Known Member
That's a lot different from my Victorian Rook rifles, but probably more effective....
HB
HistoricBore
Well-Known Member
levigsp
Well-Known Member
so a few gm/cm in mass make little difference according to you. well this is science that says your talking rubbish. here is the original write up done for a loading forum and the proof sheets. ------
Yet another interesting read from Birmingham results, the aim on this one was to find a very safe load for an old Damascus barrelled 10 gauge with little choke in it, straight off tss 18 fitted the bill shooting as tight as It does, not
sure if this had been done before but all 3 loads were loaded with the exact same components the only difference was the packers used to fill out the wad to enable a crimp,,PLEASE realise the only difference is the density of the shot, the weight of everything was exactly the same yet look at the difference in pressure. As soon as i can dig up the proof sheets for 1 grain of powder difference behind tss I will show it
i agree crimp pressure, quality of crimp, depth of crimp, can make a big difference to pressure, never said otherwise, as will swapping from lead to steel to TSS again never said otherwise, which is why they say never substitute steel shot for a lead shot load.
Interestingly the mean pressure was less for both the steel shot and TSS shot than lead on the proof reports for the same 39.5grains of powder.
i was questioning 1 grain of powder degrading a pattern by 77%
Interestingly the mean pressure was less for both the steel shot and TSS shot than lead on the proof reports for the same 39.5grains of powder.
i was questioning 1 grain of powder degrading a pattern by 77%
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levigsp
Well-Known Member
You actually said and I quote " regardless of a few gm/c3 difference in mass of the shot" the above proof sheets show that that mass make a huge difference. As to the one grain of powder, I will eventually find the proof sheets to show exactly why 1 grain makes such a huge difference with tungsten, not lead where it has little difference in the real world.
levigsp
Well-Known Member
So, I told you I test and re test and also told you you were very wrong and i would find my proof. So I thought no time like now. He are two proof sheets, please ignore the scribbles. both loads the same apart from one grain of powder. so perhaps now you will realise that one grain of powder makes 600 bar of pressure difference in some loads, and then try and imagine what that does to pattern. Tss loading is nothing like loading steel or lead or any other shot. the mass and volume makes for very interesting pressure curves, I rest my case.
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