Choosing Lead-Free Bullets

[Leec6.5]

Anyway..who can hand on heart say they would still, buy boutique, if the entire Barnes range was readily available?

Barnes is readily available, if you look in the right places! Picked up 150 7mm the other week, I know where I can get my mits on 130 grain .277 their there, you just have to find them, but to be honest I’m sensible, I don’t follow the trend of shooting 6.5 Cal the latest new fad

 

[PhilRS03]

Thats all very lovely, if you have shot 3000’of them you will have shot a lot of paper or a lot of deer, paper interests me about as much shutting my finger in a car door but -

How many of those 3000 are on deer?

whats the carcass damage like?

Whats the bullet weight retention like?

And no bollocks If you please

I am actually quite excited, someone who has shot a lot of copper and actually 1 specific bullet, this has the potential to be incredibly interesting!

Hi, I’m not sure whether this is deliberately rude or sarcastic but I’ll do my best to answer objectively.

Out of those 3,000, the only paper that I’ve shot is to conduct either ladder tests or some grouping evidence at various ranges. Most of it has been on steel targets out to around 1200m (the Merlin’s are transonic in our 18” test rifle around 1340m). I’ve not had chance unfortunately to shoot any deer with them personally yet, although I have loaded some Merlin’s for my 6.5-284. I am heading out to a friends estate in Cambridgeshire on the 25th March for a heavy stalking weekend so I’ll absolutely share everything I have then for you. That said, I have seen tonnes of carcass damage photos from people I know/trust and the results all seem to be identical. The bullet does the same thing, every time.

I can only instead offer extensive lab ballistics testing (blocks, soap etc) with High speed camera footage and verified REM-E/REM-V figures from calibrated test equipment, which arguably is what matters in the whole copper bullet argument. Going back to the original cost factor I mentioned.

The issue with things like the Barnes TSX (I use issue loosely, they are great bullets) is that they need a very high REM V figure to expand and do their thing ballistically speaking. Your looking at between 14-1800fps of REM V for a TSX to work (note the velocity bracket there- this is a materials and quality control compromise in manufacture), whereas the merlin only needs to be moving at 800fps to perform properly, in terms of the way it expands. Note only one figure there..

Personally, I know it’s an emotive topic, I tend to high neck or head shoot everything unless there is absolutely no other option, so for me accuracy and consistency are my go to priorities when I’m looking at bullets. The second order effect of the pathological attention to detail needed when trying to achieve the former is usually phenomenal terminal performance. Just due to materials used, bullet design etc. like you, I’ve got no personal interest in shooting paper or steel really, however doing both of those things A LOT, gives me the confidence in my Rifle/ammo to shoot living things without fear of messing something up.

If you can wait until the 25th March, like I say I will have a fair few examples for you using the 130gr merlin on various deer species. I’ll do my best to recover everything and will even knock a report up so everyone can read it. I’ll also attach all the Gel block testing photos, videos and lab results I have to that report too. Hopefully that will put to bed some of the comedy that I’ve read over the last few hours on here!

 

[Leec6.5]

Hi, I’m not sure whether this is deliberately rude or sarcastic but I’ll do my best to answer objectively.

Out of those 3,000, the only paper that I’ve shot is to conduct either ladder tests or some grouping evidence at various ranges. Most of it has been on steel targets out to around 1200m (the Merlin’s are transonic in our 18” test rifle around 1340m). I’ve not had chance unfortunately to shoot any deer with them personally yet, although I have loaded some Merlin’s for my 6.5-284. I am heading out to a friends estate in Cambridgeshire on the 25th March for a heavy stalking weekend so I’ll absolutely share everything I have then for you. That said, I have seen tonnes of carcass damage photos from people I know/trust and the results all seem to be identical. The bullet does the same thing, every time.

I can only instead offer extensive lab ballistics testing (blocks, soap etc) with High speed camera footage and verified REM-E/REM-V figures from calibrated test equipment, which arguably is what matters in the whole copper bullet argument. Going back to the original cost factor I mentioned.

The issue with things like the Barnes TSX (I use issue loosely, they are great bullets) is that they need a very high REM V figure to expand and do their thing ballistically speaking. Your looking at between 14-1800fps of REM V for a TSX to work (note the velocity bracket there- this is a materials and quality control compromise in manufacture), whereas the merlin only needs to be moving at 800fps to perform properly, in terms of the way it expands. Note only one figure there..

Personally, I know it’s an emotive topic, I tend to high neck or head shoot everything unless there is absolutely no other option, so for me accuracy and consistency are my go to priorities when I’m looking at bullets. The second order effect of the pathological attention to detail needed when trying to achieve the former is usually phenomenal terminal performance. Just due to materials used, bullet design etc. like you, I’ve got no personal interest in shooting paper or steel really, however doing both of those things A LOT, gives me the confidence in my Rifle/ammo to shoot living things without fear of messing something up.

If you can wait until the 25th March, like I say I will have a fair few examples for you using the 130gr merlin on various deer species. I’ll do my best to recover everything and will even knock a report up so everyone can read it. I’ll also attach all the Gel block testing photos, videos and lab results I have to that report too. Hopefully that will put to bed some of the comedy that I’ve read over the last few hours on here!

So how many do if your shot with them?

I’m not being sarcastic, I’m just blunt to the point, that’s my way of doing things unfortunately!

I’m not interested in steel gongs or paper ladder tests and all the ins and outs of fancy technical bull****, all I want to know is -

what is it like on deer?

What’s the bullet damage like?

What’s the white retention like?

It’s practical information like that, that people need, not all the Horlicks with ballistic gel, and all that Fannying about, simple as it is I’m afraid.

Like I’ve said previously, when are UK company can produce me a barnes bullet clone that performs like a Barnes behaves like a barnes and does exactly what a Barnes bullet does I’ll use it.

 

[PhilRS03]

So how many do if your shot with them?

I’m not being sarcastic, I’m just blunt to the point, that’s my way of doing things unfortunately!

I’m not interested in steel gongs or paper ladder tests and all the ins and outs of fancy technical bull****, all I want to know is -

what is it like on deer?

What’s the bullet damage like?

What’s the white retention like?

Ok, I have a different way of doing things to you unfortunately, I suspect that attribute doesn’t show itself when speaking in person!

The fancy technical “bull****” as you call it is the basis for everything you SHOULD be concerned about. You don’t just shoot at living things without doing a bit of due diligence, and In doing that you start to understand that certain bullets behave in a certain way. You don’t need to shoot deer to figure that out. I’m fact it’s the last thing you should do in my opinion.

The work I’m doing with Virtus has nothing to do with Deer stalking, in fact the target set is irrelevant. There have been tonnes of photos ( I think) flying about of a lot of professional deer stalkers testing these bullets in various calibers for quite a while, but I will for sure fire over what I have when I have it.

A little open mindedness goes a long way, I’ve had a lot of exposure to this kind of thing and I still learn something new almost on a weekly basis. For me it’s about maximising my margin for error and minimising the external factors as much as possible using “technical bulls***” And I’ve settled on Virtus professionally and personally as a company that offers exactly what I need. Pretty simple concept really. High BC= better in the wind (minimising an external factor), Bullet to bullet consistency= consistent terminal performance, choosing a caliber that maximises ballistic margain for error (wind, Judging distance, shooting at night)= more confidence in my ability/less chance of cocking the job up.

Edit: in every measurable and conceivable way, these out perform anything Barnes has to offer. I’d also maybe do some research into the people offering this kind of advice and the guys at Virtus, especially when you’re comparing it to Barnes bullet!

 

[Stalker62]

Just adding my ten pence here, conscious that as a new member my opinion may not be as well received however:

How dare you come on here, with all your new fangled evidenced based 'real world' experience - when you only joined this morning!


The 'unwritten rules' of the internet are that you must be a 'member' for at least five years before you can post anything like an opinion.

Also, you must post only whilst still in either your pyjamas or in anything camouflage...



I look forward to reading your response in February 2028...

 

[Leec6.5]

Ok, I have a different way of doing things to you unfortunately, I suspect that attribute doesn’t show itself when speaking in person!

The fancy technical “bull****” as you call it is the basis for everything you SHOULD be concerned about. You don’t just shoot at living things without doing a bit of due diligence, and In doing that you start to understand that certain bullets behave in a certain way. You don’t need to shoot deer to figure that out. I’m fact it’s the last thing you should do in my opinion.

The work I’m doing with Virtus has nothing to do with Deer stalking, in fact the target set is irrelevant. There have been tonnes of photos ( I think) flying about of a lot of professional deer stalkers testing these bullets in various calibers for quite a while, but I will for sure fire over what I have when I have it.

A little open mindedness goes a long way, I’ve had a lot of exposure to this kind of thing and I still learn something new almost on a weekly basis. For me it’s about maximising my margin for error and minimising the external factors as much as possible using “technical bulls***” And I’ve settled on Virtus professionally and personally as a company that offers exactly what I need. Pretty simple concept really. High BC= better in the wind (minimising an external factor), Bullet to bullet consistency= consistent terminal performance, choosing a caliber that maximises ballistic margain for error (wind, Judging distance, shooting at night)= more confidence in my ability/less chance of cocking the job up.

Edit: in every measurable and conceivable way, these out perform anything Barnes has to offer. I’d also maybe do some research into the people offering this kind of advice and the guys at Virtus, especially when you’re comparing it to Barnes bullet!

Thats all very marvellous, go shoot 100-200 deer then please report your findings.

Until then I’ll stick to what i know works.

I was really excited when i read the guy had shot 3000 of these bullets, but lost all enthusiasm when i read most of them were on steel gongs.

Steel gongs dont breathe, bleed or run!

Forgive my ignorance but as deer stalkers is the not what we need to know?

 

[308tikka]

Anyway..who can hand on heart say they would still, buy boutique, if the entire Barnes range was readily available?

It will all come down to cost.

Having had some specifically designed for my needs, ill pay for it.

For a muntjac, no.

If anyone has fears of the long term availability of Virtus, suggest you support by ordering.

 

[Leec6.5]

It will all come down to cost.

Having had some specifically designed for my needs, ill pay for it.

For a muntjac, no.

If anyone has fears of the long term availability of Virtus, suggest you support by ordering.

Muntjac or red there is no difference in my opinion, the only this is price you get from the dealer!

 

[Dunwaters]

Theres far too much debate on calibers and bullets and bullet styles and construction.
A half way decent shot, endowed with a little intelligence, who can hunt will quickly adapt to whatever cartridge and bullet combination they have to hand and make it work for them.
Theres no single answer as to what’s best for bullet choice, cartridge, caliber or shot placement.
Now that that’s sorted (and before lunch too) we can delete 90% of this sites threads and go do something productive with the rest of the afternoon.

 

[308tikka]

Thats all very marvellous, go shoot 100-200 deer then please report your findings.

Until then I’ll stick to what i know works.

I was really excited when i read the guy had shot 3000 of these bullets, but lost all enthusiasm when i read most of them were on steel gongs.

Steel gongs dont breathe, bleed or run!

Forgive my ignorance but as deer stalkers is the not what we need to know?

How many required in the sample size to satisfy?

There is already data collected on NLA by an organisation which has provided the same data to academics, deer welfare organisations etc.

The last academic paper I read on wounded deer (using lead) had one clear conclusion - not enough practice by the stalker, secondary conclusion, not shooting within their skill levels.

As its about £1 per bullet on average, I cannot see the practice rate going up.

 

[Leec6.5]

How many required in the sample size to satisfy?

There is already data collected on NLA by an organisation which has provided the same data to academics, deer welfare organisations etc.

The last academic paper I read on wounded deer (using lead) had one clear conclusion - not enough practice by the stalker, secondary conclusion, not shooting within their skill levels.

As its about £1 per bullet on average, I cannot see the practice rate going up.

Personally if i was going to try a different bullet, i would buy 200, 50 for load development, 150 to kill deer in all weathers and conditions, after that lots been shot you will have a fair understanding of how the bullet performs.

As for wounded deer, its the block behind the stock thats the problem not the projectile in most cases.

 

[PhilRS03]

Thats all very marvellous, go shoot 100-200 deer then please report your findings.

Until then I’ll stick to what i know works.

I was really excited when i read the guy had shot 3000 of these bullets, but lost all enthusiasm when i read most of them were on steel gongs.

Steel gongs dont breathe, bleed or run!

Forgive my ignorance but as deer stalkers is the not what we need to know?

I totally agree, but you’re not taking on board what I’m saying. I shoot steel gongs and test stuff (as per my job role) to come to and then present an informed opinion/conclusion on what the best equipment is to do the job myself or others need it to do. Regardless, as I say of the target set.

I tend to find people that form an immovable opinion on things in life generally don’t do all that well, especially in the world i knock around in. I would also say maybe load some of these bullets yourself to try. I can fairly certainly say that myself, and Virtus also have a great deal of experience when it comes to Barnes bullets as well which were (at the time) the best thing around to achieve what they needed to achieve. That was 10 years ago. Times change, and so should informed opinions, knowledge is your freind!

 

[Steff]

The one aspect that is crucial to accuracy/consistency but hasn‘t been mentioned at all so far is the manufacturing process of mono metal bullets.
The likes of Barnes and Hornady are pressed cut offs. Yew Tree, Fox and most of the other ‚boutique‘ bullets are lathed products.
In my experience the latter are more consistent with regard to accuracy.
Personally I use Aero SB bullets by Mayerl in Austria and wouldn‘t touch a Barnes TSX with a barge pole for the afore mentioned reason.

 

[Mike L]

The one aspect that is crucial to accuracy/consistency but hasn‘t been mentioned at all so far is the manufacturing process of mono metal bullets.
The likes of Barnes and Hornady are pressed cut offs. Yew Tree, Fox and most of the other ‚boutique‘ bullets are lathed products.
In my experience the latter are more consistent with regard to accuracy.
Personally I use Aero SB bullets by Mayerl in Austria and wouldn‘t touch a Barnes TSX with a barge pole for afore mentioned reason.

Have you used Barnes tsx?

 

[Steff]

Have you used Barnes tsx?

Yes, I have. But only on paper and admittedly not in a scientifically relevant quantity. But the couple of hundred I have tested did not render consistent accuracy. The odd flyer occurred all to often for my taste.

 

[PhilRS03]

Yes, I have. But only on paper and admittedly not in a scientifically relevant quantity. But the couple of hundred I have tested did not render consistent accuracy. The odd flyer occurred all to often for my taste.

You are right. As mentioned in your first comment ref. the way they are manufactured Vs Lathe turned mono’s. It’s also worth bearing in mind the TSX was never designed to shoot deer, or be accurate past 300m. In Fact it was designed to be terminally effective inside of about 10m, through barriers… As with anything industry found an alternative use for it in the hunting market.

That differs from the Virtus approach, although the terminal effect inside of traditional TSX range is arguably even better.

 

[cjm1066]

As a matter of interest how are Barnes made?

In a 25/06 100 grain Barnes are the best bullet I have used, alas a few years ago I couldn't get any more and disliked the rifle so it went.

 

[Mike L]

Yes, I have. But only on paper and admittedly not in a scientifically relevant quantity. But the couple of hundred I have tested did not render consistent accuracy. The odd flyer occurred all to often for my taste.

Can I ask what degree of accuracy you were after, I don’t target shoot so don’t know the precision required?

 

[Steff]

Can I ask what degree of accuracy you were after, I don’t target shoot so don’t know the precision required?

Ha, ha, I‘m after 0 MOA accuracy of course.
Realistically I was able to achieve 1/2 MOA groups from a Blaser R93 in .308. TBH I cannot recall the bullet weight, but it must have been something in the range of 150 gn.
The problem was that those quite acceptable groups were often ruined by unexplainable flyers. Barrel coppering was also a major issue. It was virtually impossible to shoot more than two 5-shot groups before they opened up to round 1 1/2 MOA without proper barrel cleaning.

 

[Rutland lad]

Great piece by the OP.
I shoot two calibres.
300 WM, 6.5 x 55.
Barnes TSX works fantastically in the WM, can’t get it to group in the 6,5 so I use FOX and I’m about to try Peregine.
I’ve had to compromise as I do like the Barnes, but the Fox done’s the job too. Anything to choose between them ?
Not as far as I can tell.
sometimes you have to try other brands to get the performance you want or need. That’s all I have to say about that …