SAMMI vers CIP
- Thread starter ruger77
- Start date
trickie
Well-Known Member
CIP;
SAMMI page 95;
They should be nominally the same and it shouldn’t make any difference to use.
SAMMI page 95;
They should be nominally the same and it shouldn’t make any difference to use.
ruger77
Well-Known Member
Yes you are correct I converted the CIP measurements (mm) to inches they both came out the same . I’ve got a rifle that’s jamming up on the bolt it’s been back for repair three times now the first time they told me to try some different ammunition still had the same problem they claim it’s chambered to CIP speck so it will have problems with SAAMI speck rounds I returned it yesterday to the gun shop yesterday to be returned to the importers for repair ,when I left the shop I was given a pice of paper with a contact number and told to ring it ,I rang on the way home the chap from Viking arms told me to wrap some 800 wet and dry around some wood dowel stick it in a drill and polish the chamber ,now this is a £3500 rifle so not prepared to do this . I’m a bit feed up with it
ruger77
Well-Known Member
Normally the case looks OK but the Barnes cases all had a dent on the neck ,the Remington cases also are slightly deformed in the neck rest of the case no marks at all
Pictures...?
Steff
Well-Known Member
Which rifle is it?
ruger77
Well-Known Member
It’s a Merkel helix buddy
CIP spec 30-06? Unlikely. Chamber cut with an undersized dull reamer? Maybe.
SAAMI and CIP pressures are measured differently. Two identical rounds would measure higher in CIP than SAAMI. This does not mean that the cartridge is actually higher pressure. They are just measured on a different scale, so to speak. ~Muir
SAAMI and CIP pressures are measured differently. Two identical rounds would measure higher in CIP than SAAMI. This does not mean that the cartridge is actually higher pressure. They are just measured on a different scale, so to speak. ~Muir
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
SAAMI is the US standard for cartridges. Measurements are imperial.
CIP standards are predominantly European and mostly in metric.
Depending on the cartridge there are and will be differences. And indeed conversion from imperial to metric will also give difference. Its why see CIP specced chamber reamers and SAAMI specced chamber reamers.
This will be particularly noticeable when you are at the edge of tolerances and whilst a chamber may be within CIP specs it may be outwith SAAMI specs and vice versa. Ditto with ammo.
As a general rule of thumb is to use US Ammo in US sourced firearms and European Ammo in European sourced guns as that is what they are each built for.
So I would expect a German built rifle like a Merkel will run well on RWS, Sellier & Bellot etc as that is what will be tested with. Doubt the German makers ever see Remington ammo. Why bother importing such ammo when plenty of good local ammo available.
And struggling to see how dents are appearing cases. Internal pressure will iron out dents one would have thought.
Are they happening during chambering or extaraction, or is there are build up of crud / carbon etc in the chamber which is causing the dent and hard extraction.
CIP standards are predominantly European and mostly in metric.
Depending on the cartridge there are and will be differences. And indeed conversion from imperial to metric will also give difference. Its why see CIP specced chamber reamers and SAAMI specced chamber reamers.
This will be particularly noticeable when you are at the edge of tolerances and whilst a chamber may be within CIP specs it may be outwith SAAMI specs and vice versa. Ditto with ammo.
As a general rule of thumb is to use US Ammo in US sourced firearms and European Ammo in European sourced guns as that is what they are each built for.
So I would expect a German built rifle like a Merkel will run well on RWS, Sellier & Bellot etc as that is what will be tested with. Doubt the German makers ever see Remington ammo. Why bother importing such ammo when plenty of good local ammo available.
And struggling to see how dents are appearing cases. Internal pressure will iron out dents one would have thought.
Are they happening during chambering or extaraction, or is there are build up of crud / carbon etc in the chamber which is causing the dent and hard extraction.
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Which, if true, makes little to no sense.
It makes one wonder how Bergara, Sako, Beretta, Tikka, Sauer, and CZ ever survived in the US market. And why does Norma and SAKO ammo fit my rifles? Today I will travel to a sports center that sells all of these rifles and I'm guessing that out of the racks and racks and racks of ammunition they have on the sales floor I will not find one shelf labeled "CIP"... or "SAAMI" for that matter.
I think it just comes down to the individual firearm. ~Muir
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Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
It’s because Berreta Group having a very strong presence in the US with factories etc all there, and even for their European made Firearms the US is a major market and they made sure their guns are designed for and suit that market and ammo available in that market. Sako and Norma are all part of the Beretta group, and again they have lines of ammo earmarked for the US market. Indeed they have the Norma Whitetail line of ammo which clearly targeted at US hunters. Sig Sauer also have a major US presence indeed will be manufacturing the next generation of military rifles for US army in their US facilities.
My understanding is that ammo brands such as RWS are not very widely spread across the US. Go into a German hunting store most ammo will be RWS, Geco, Brenneke and then at budget end Sellier & Bellot with the odd box of Hornady and Federal.
UK gunshop will have lots of empty spaces with the odd box from whatever shipment has arrived recently.
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Steff
Well-Known Member
I was sort of expecting that.
What you ate describing is very common with the Helix. Both Merkel and some users claim that the issue has been resolved in current production and I have no reason not to believe them.
But every second Helix I have come across, and they are quite a few (I live in Germany), has this problem.
Ok. Must be really confusing to the consumers who need to make sure that their CZ, Tikka or SAKO sports a CIP chamber and that they haven't gotten a mis-directed unit originally designated for export the US market. We have RWS, GECO and S&B ammo. The latter being the most prevalent. I've seen Brenneke but never purchased it. ~Muir
ruger77
Well-Known Member
Yes they said it was chambered for RWS rounds unfortunately they are not available in the local shops I could get some on 200Grn but wouldn’t fancy these
ruger77
Well-Known Member
How do you resolve the problem Steff
ruger77
Well-Known Member
ruger77
Well-Known Member
the chamber is spotless the rifle has only had approx 100 rounds through it , the Barnes rounds were terrible every one jammed the bolt
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