SAMMI vers CIP
- Thread starter ruger77
- Start date
I have read of similar experiences on this site involving UK retailers. mixed brands of ammo in what was supposed to be a "New" box. An American gun shop would be drummed out of business for that practice. I do not know of a gunshop anywhere in the US where you can return a box of ammunition once it has left the store. Shops have signs that say "All Ammunition Sales are Final. NO returns" And they stick by it.
I'm glad your mismatch didn't have any negative results. ~Muir
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Trouble in the UK is that we are only permitted to have certain ammo and mostly that is ammo for the rifles we possess and use.
So if you shoot a 6.5cm and then see the light and switch to a 7x57 you can no longer hold 6.5cm ammo. Basically having any ammunition in your possession that is not on your ticket is a criminal offence and if and when Police prosecute at a min its loss of licence.
And people generally trade in when they are fed up with a particular rifle / cartridge.
And we view ammo as pricy and would never entertain the idea of just shooting it off and gaining practice.
So you take your old gun to the gunship along with a bag of lots of bits and pieces of ammo that you have.
And then the gunshop has all these bits and pieces to deal with. ….
Well sure. I understand that and US shooters will very often trade in a partial box of ammo. The hitch is that in the US it usually used in the test fire tank. And that being said. A box of ammuntion sold as new should never have a handloaded round mixed in. I'd be tempted to punch the owner squarely on the jaw. Your guys are a bit cavalier when it comes to selling ammo. Who was it on this site who bought some Federal and found 6 rounds of Winchester in the box. I'd scream "Swindler!" and make a hell of a scene.
I can be very vindictive. ~Muir
Late to the party on this one.
1. Send that gun back. If it won't chamber CIP certified ammo...then it's wrong. Period. CIP is a standard, that ammunition AND rifle manufacturers have to follow.
2. Just a guess but: The dented cases are from the rotary bolt rotating (duh) 60 degrees, and as the case comes out, it's being pushed out to the side by the ejector plunger, and drug across the corner of one of the 3 broached receiver lugs. Hence the rather unique grooved dent down the side of the neck. (See pictures below)
3. As to CIP vs SAAMI, it has already been mentioned several times...it depends on the cartridge. Some cases (like the 30-06) are the same, regardless of certification. Some (like the 6.5x55SE) are not, and have minor differences, such as the case rim dimension for the 6.5x55SE. The US 6.5x55 ammo uses a drawn 30-06 based case as the parent case, and so retains that case head dimension. True 6.5x55 has an ever so slightly smaller case head diameter (IIRC). Most guns, since they are made in a plethora of chamberings, typically use a bolt head dimension that will tolerate the larger 30-06/308 diameter (and just lengthen the extractor to account for using a smaller case diameter), so that they can streamline manufacturing of the bolts that can be used across a line of cartridges. Even if the gun is offered in 6.5x55SE for example.
After thinking about this a bit, I'd honestly be curious to see if the gun had also been throated for a certain bullet. The Germans/Austrians do like to be precise, to the point of failure, just so they can say they were correct. Even if it makes no common sense. Or as we say here in the US; "They let "perfect" become the enemy of "good enough"."
1. Send that gun back. If it won't chamber CIP certified ammo...then it's wrong. Period. CIP is a standard, that ammunition AND rifle manufacturers have to follow.
2. Just a guess but: The dented cases are from the rotary bolt rotating (duh) 60 degrees, and as the case comes out, it's being pushed out to the side by the ejector plunger, and drug across the corner of one of the 3 broached receiver lugs. Hence the rather unique grooved dent down the side of the neck. (See pictures below)
3. As to CIP vs SAAMI, it has already been mentioned several times...it depends on the cartridge. Some cases (like the 30-06) are the same, regardless of certification. Some (like the 6.5x55SE) are not, and have minor differences, such as the case rim dimension for the 6.5x55SE. The US 6.5x55 ammo uses a drawn 30-06 based case as the parent case, and so retains that case head dimension. True 6.5x55 has an ever so slightly smaller case head diameter (IIRC). Most guns, since they are made in a plethora of chamberings, typically use a bolt head dimension that will tolerate the larger 30-06/308 diameter (and just lengthen the extractor to account for using a smaller case diameter), so that they can streamline manufacturing of the bolts that can be used across a line of cartridges. Even if the gun is offered in 6.5x55SE for example.
After thinking about this a bit, I'd honestly be curious to see if the gun had also been throated for a certain bullet. The Germans/Austrians do like to be precise, to the point of failure, just so they can say they were correct. Even if it makes no common sense. Or as we say here in the US; "They let "perfect" become the enemy of "good enough"."
jthyttin
Well-Known Member
It's not so black and white. Just checked CIP dimensions for CARTRIDGE MAXI and CHAMBER MINI. Also with 30-06 the case is that max size cartridge doesn't fit in min size chamber. Base to shoulder and base to neck lengths are 0.2mm longer in max size cartridge.
So let me ask: Do you think offering a "minimum chamber spec'ed rifle" knowing it won't chamber "maximum spec'ed ammo" is acceptable? If manufacturers are not going to produce weapons that allow for the specs, than why do we have the specs to begin with?
Sorry, I'd call BS on that, and send the rifle back. As I said before, just because it meets the bare minimum spec, but doesn't chamber all ammunition, doesn't make the manufacturer right. Perfection being the enemy of good enough (to chamber all ammunition within spec), is what this is. Send it back.
jthyttin
Well-Known Member
I wrote my view in #30, quoted below. It's just that you cannot say "I return this as you didn't follow the standard" because they might legitimally answer "yes we are". My understanding of UK consumer protection is lacking, but I've understood that "fit for purpose" (or "not fit" in this case) is reasonable grounds for return and refund.
It would appear as though this is a known issue and 30-06 is a known offender . Delta L is essentially a difference in length between SAAMI and CIP . Theoretically all European 30-06 ammo should chamber in any 30-06 chamber ." Theoretically ".
May I suggest your first port of call would be a riflesmith and have the headspace checked (CIP) . If it falls within spec' , it's difficult to say how to resolve the issue.
ruger77
Well-Known Member
I measured the head space with a RCBS precision micrometer =head space 2.0577
How do you measure headspace with a micrometer? ~Muir
ruger77
Well-Known Member
Put a fired case in the micrometer screw the top on carefully read the scale that gives you a plus or minus reading .So zero on the gauge is SAMMI case length
It's possible you're not measuring from the datum point , that is 0.020 " shorter than SAAMI minimum not the 0.0059" as suggested . I'm unable to see the headspace measurement on the CIP chamber drawing, it simply says
,"headspace on shoulder ".
A trip to the gunsmiths ?
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More on delta L
en.wikipedia.org
Delta L problem - Wikipedia
Marine, 6.5x55 has a slightly larger not smaller case head than 30-06, around 0.2mm. I must have a look if Tikka actually make 6.5x55 bolt larger vs 308 etc. I have had 6.5x55 T3 re-barrelled to 308/6.5CM and seemed perfect.
edi
The problem is , providing the chamber meets CIP spec' , that the OP has been sold a rifle that is compliant in the UK . As such , it may be difficult to challenge and the only option would be to have a smith ream the chamber out at his own expense . Which , we all would agree , is unacceptable and the rifle in its current state is unfit for purpose .. Hopefully , the importer will rectify the issue as an act of good faith. The law is an ass !
How CIP arrived at different dimensions for a number of chamberings is a mystery to me , I'm sure someone more knowledgeable on the subject will be along to explain .
ruger77
Well-Known Member
I’m measuring between L1and L2
The datum point diameter on the SAAMI drawing would indicate a diameter of 0.375" or 9.53 mm , if that's the internal diameter of your fired case neck then you're on the money , though that is assuming perfect cartridge in chamber fit .
The reason I've suggested a riflesmith checking with go / no-go gauges is to give some gravitas to your argument for when you confront Viking Arms , failing that, contact them in advance and ask they bring a set .
Steve Kershaw is in Howden !
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