So they don’t need to be locked away? Even though there is ammunition available?? This is why I asked as there seems to be some confusion….
Obsolete calibers.
- Thread starter gixer1
- Start date
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
If the firearm you possess is on the schedule shown above as obsolete then that is proof that no certificate is required IF however you do possess ammo and intend to shoot it then it has to be on certificate.
Some of the comments are confusing the original question so to clarify:
The item is listed on your FAC so it is a section 1 Firearm and needs to be secured exactly the same as your other firearms.
I presume this is because you intend to shoot it, if you no longer intend to do this you can ask to have it removed and it becomes a S58 again
The availability of ammunition for the S58 arms isn't the test in law, odd lots of old ammunition for most of the S58 list can be found at auction but none of the calibers are in current manufacture.
It is the intent to fire it and possession of ammunition or indeed components would be seen as an intent to fire it and it would need to be on a section 1.
The guidance is also clear on the original chambering of the arm, not what it may also be capable of firing, as one OP has pointed out 12 bore shotguns can chamber and fire .50" BMG, this doesn't change their status in law. The Schmidt Rubin 1889 wasn't designed to fire GP11 7.5x55 just because it can chamber it (and generally regarded as unsafe - a "in emergencies only" case) it doesn't mean that ammunition is available for it.
In summary if it's on your FAC keep it locked up, if your FEO visits to check your security and it's hung up on a wall and not in the cabinet then that will put you in breach of your FAC conditions.
The item is listed on your FAC so it is a section 1 Firearm and needs to be secured exactly the same as your other firearms.
I presume this is because you intend to shoot it, if you no longer intend to do this you can ask to have it removed and it becomes a S58 again
The availability of ammunition for the S58 arms isn't the test in law, odd lots of old ammunition for most of the S58 list can be found at auction but none of the calibers are in current manufacture.
It is the intent to fire it and possession of ammunition or indeed components would be seen as an intent to fire it and it would need to be on a section 1.
The guidance is also clear on the original chambering of the arm, not what it may also be capable of firing, as one OP has pointed out 12 bore shotguns can chamber and fire .50" BMG, this doesn't change their status in law. The Schmidt Rubin 1889 wasn't designed to fire GP11 7.5x55 just because it can chamber it (and generally regarded as unsafe - a "in emergencies only" case) it doesn't mean that ammunition is available for it.
In summary if it's on your FAC keep it locked up, if your FEO visits to check your security and it's hung up on a wall and not in the cabinet then that will put you in breach of your FAC conditions.
It is like that when made. Coiled brass strip wound onto a metal base not draw brass. Not liked by the soldiers at all as these coiled cases could get stuck. Or worse the brass "unwind" and only the base of the case come out after firing (or some such that could be fatal if the soldier then couldn't reload his weapon) Thus the Martini Henry having that blooming long rod under the barrel. Not just for cleaning but also for knocking out jammed cases.
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
No, you dont need an FAC to possess obsolete ammunition although most collectors do. It is about intent and is possibly covered in the VCRA rather than the firearms acts.
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
However the 1889 is at risk of failing if you use 1911 ammunition in it!
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Hmmm.
Funny thing is that my 380 Rook (finally, finally agreed as coming off fac - remember my 12 bore/50 cal. argument) chambers .38 Special (which was why licensing originally said wrongly it must be on fac) and at that time I had 38s in abundance for target shooting (on fac) however as I had no intention to shoot said 38s in the rook it was indeed able to come off fac!
Phew!
Funny thing is that my 380 Rook (finally, finally agreed as coming off fac - remember my 12 bore/50 cal. argument) chambers .38 Special (which was why licensing originally said wrongly it must be on fac) and at that time I had 38s in abundance for target shooting (on fac) however as I had no intention to shoot said 38s in the rook it was indeed able to come off fac!
Phew!
You absolutely do need a FAC to possess "obsolete ammunition", there is no concept in law of "obsolete ammunition" ammunition is clearly defined in law, possessing any live ammunition without the appropriate certificate is an offence. If you check the act it's very clear
Requirement of firearm certificate.
This section applies to any ammunition for a firearm, except the following articles, namely:—
(a)cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds ·36 inch in diameter;
(b)ammunition for an air gun, air rifle or air pistol; and
(c)blank cartridges not more than one inch in diameter measured immediately in front of the rim or cannelure of the base of the cartridge.
So for any of the rifled arms under S58 if you posses live ammunition that doesn't meet the 3 exceptions above you need a FAC
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
I suggest you read the conditions regarding storage of firearms on your FAC. You MUST comply with these without exception.
If you intend to shoot the rifle it MUST be on your FAC before you do so.
Possession of components for an obsolete calibre rifle in the possession of that person is sometimes viewed as intent by the police.
If you do not intend to shoot it and it’s not on your FAC, then hang it on the wall if you wish!
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
Correct, although if you possess such ammunition and a sec58 firearm your going to be in a lot of trouble
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
As a point of interest, chamberings are deemed obsolete (or not) and added (or taken off) the section 58 register from time to time by the authorities.
It does not always follow that no ammunition is commercially available for them.
I happen to work for a company that manufactures a and entirely legally sells ammunition for a number of ‘obsolete cartridge’ chamberings
It does not always follow that no ammunition is commercially available for them.
I happen to work for a company that manufactures a and entirely legally sells ammunition for a number of ‘obsolete cartridge’ chamberings
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
Good guess!
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
Can you comment on post #28?
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
It with any real authority tbh (although I could have a google and see what that turned up
).We deal with a number of cartridge collectors, but to my knowledge they all seem to have collectors licences.
New manufactured rounds for obsolete calibres certainly must be entered as per usual on an FAC
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
One chap at out Club has that 'condition' on his FAC.
I just wondered (always dangerous) what the legal position is, for someone is possession of 'obsolete ammunition' without that?
It has never touched my world, but now I am curious...
FWIW
I have several 'obsolete' calibres on my FAC, but that is because I make, the damn stuff, and occasionally shoot it.
If you have not seen this chap (Canadian) - his videos are great fun, well put put together and informative.
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
One chap at out Club has that 'condition' on his FAC.
I just wondered (always dangerous) what the legal position is, for someone is possession of 'obsolete ammunition' without that?
It has never touched my world, but now I am curious...
View attachment 323650
FWIW
I have several 'obsolete' calibres on my FAC, but that is because I make, the damn stuff, and occasionally shoot it.
If you have not seen this chap (Canadian) - his videos are great fun, well put put together and informative.
Yes his videos are good
I would love to find a reasonable priced mk1 or mk2 martini Henry but they are getting pretty pricy now!
The question regarding possession of ammunition is covered in the guidance to Police. https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/1116230/Firearms_guide_November_2022.pdf
Ammunition 8.12 Ammunition does not benefit from the exemption for antique firearms, and the possession of live ammunition suitable for use with an otherwise antique firearm may indicate that the firearm is not possessed as a curiosity or ornament.
In terms of chambering this is also defined. so if the firearm retains it's original chambering or a identical replacement chamber it qualifies for S58, the last section clarifies the point about being able to accept other cartridges.
[F4(2A)For the purposes of subsection (2), a firearm is an “antique firearm” if—
(a)either the conditions in subsection (2B) are met or the condition in subsection (2C) is met, and
(b)if an additional condition is specified in regulations under subsection (2D), that condition is also met.
(2B)The conditions in this subsection are that—
(a)the firearm's chamber or, if the firearm has more than one chamber, each of its chambers is either—
(i)a chamber that the firearm had when it was manufactured, or
(ii)a replacement for such a chamber that is identical to it in all material respects;
(b)the firearm's chamber or (as the case may be) each of the firearm's chambers is designed for use with a cartridge of a description specified in regulations made by statutory instrument by the Secretary of State (whether or not it is also capable of being used with other cartridges).
Ammunition 8.12 Ammunition does not benefit from the exemption for antique firearms, and the possession of live ammunition suitable for use with an otherwise antique firearm may indicate that the firearm is not possessed as a curiosity or ornament.
In terms of chambering this is also defined. so if the firearm retains it's original chambering or a identical replacement chamber it qualifies for S58, the last section clarifies the point about being able to accept other cartridges.
[F4(2A)For the purposes of subsection (2), a firearm is an “antique firearm” if—
(a)either the conditions in subsection (2B) are met or the condition in subsection (2C) is met, and
(b)if an additional condition is specified in regulations under subsection (2D), that condition is also met.
(2B)The conditions in this subsection are that—
(a)the firearm's chamber or, if the firearm has more than one chamber, each of its chambers is either—
(i)a chamber that the firearm had when it was manufactured, or
(ii)a replacement for such a chamber that is identical to it in all material respects;
(b)the firearm's chamber or (as the case may be) each of the firearm's chambers is designed for use with a cartridge of a description specified in regulations made by statutory instrument by the Secretary of State (whether or not it is also capable of being used with other cartridges).
I always thought it said readily available rather than 'unobtainium'. however it is many years since I have looked at that bit. I always suggest that you give your FEO a shout... they are the ones that may cause you grief as the local officers go to them for advice. Or contact BASC's licensing dept if a member... were always helpful to me when I had a query.Technically not obsolete as brass can still be obtained via Bertram... at nearly £11 per!
Bertram Brass 577/450 Martini Henry 1 Pack BERT577450 - Premier Distributors
Bertram Brass produces high quality, consistent brass for those obscure and obsolete calibres. Imported from Australia, this brass was precisely manufactured to deliver excellent accuracy and longevitywww.reloading.co.uk
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
I bought this some years ago - mainly for the history of it - which is just as well, it is ruinously expensive to shoot.
Mk IV B (1866)
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