Doctors and Renewal

[mealiejimmy]

Morning Bruce my G.P. practice refuses point blank to sign any proforma UNLESS and I quote ,you are a member of the armed forces or a SERVING police officer, now that came from a discussion I had with the head doctor at the practice,so what else can you do.???

My point exactly - your GP refused to engage with the process, so you had to use an alternative, i.e Medcert.
Yet your point is that the GP form should only be completed by a medical profession who knows you personally.
Given your experience, your desire for the form to be completed by a medical professional who knows you personally is unrealistic

Cheers

Bruce

 

[mealiejimmy]

Bruce if as you state they are" legally entitled to do" so then why are so many of the shooting community having to outsource in order to retain any certification that they require, my point is this should be enforced, after all the doctors are not issuing the certificates only assessing you on if your of a fit state to possess one.

Completing the medical form required for an FAC or SGC application is not part of the GP contract with the NHS - it is private work and, as you have discovered, the GP can choose whether or not to engage with the process
Medcert and similar organisations - which use the services of registered GPs who are sympathetic to shooting, have sprung up because some GPs - like your practice, refuse to engage with the process and others charge extortionate fees
This situation will continue unless the GP contract with the NHS is changed to make it mandatory for GPs to engage with the process.
Given the current state of the NHS and the GP contact, that is not a change that will happen any time soon.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Daisymay]

My point exactly - your GP refused to engage with the process, so you had to use an alternative, i.e Medcert.
Yet your point is that the GP form should only be completed by a medical profession who knows you personally.
Given your experience, your desire for the form to be completed by a medical professional who knows you personally is unrealistic

Cheers

Bruce

Bruce when I mention " personally" I'm putting that metiforacly ie if you've been with a practice a number of years like many people the staff get to know, now I can't answer for you but at my practice they know me quite well after Almost 40 years all be it staff have come and gone but I think most people will get where I'm coming from.

 

[75]

Bruce when I mention " personally" I'm putting that metiforacly ie if you've been with a practice a number of years like many people the staff get to know, now I can't answer for you but at my practice they know me quite well after Almost 40 years all be it staff have come and gone but I think most people will get where I'm coming from.

What about if you've not been with a practice for 40 years? It's not the 1800s and folk move around these days. I've had 3 GPs in the last 3 years. The first of those was with a big city practice with lots of GPs and where I didn't visit once in the 8+ years I was registered there. There is simply no one in the NHS who knows me personally, metaphorically speaking.

That's what your medical notes are for.

 

[Daisymay]

You win

 

[mealiejimmy]

So, are you now saying that the form can only be completed by a medical professional from the practice at which you are registered?
That worked well for you didn't it
The system as it exists is a load of good intentions cobbled together into a bad system that barely works and has distilled down into a form that must be completed by any registered GP.
That GP reviews the applicants medical records and checks whether or not the applicant has ever suffered from any of the conditions listed on the form.
The GP is also allowed to make any other comments he/she may feel relevant to the application.
However, it is vitally important to know that it is NOT the GP who decides whether or not the application is granted - that is ALWAYS the job of the police
If the GP contract with the NHS changed and GPs were forced to engage with the system, I can foresee situations where GPs who are anti shooting making comments on the form which the police could then use to refuse the application - so be careful what you wish for.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Daisymay]

The whole thing is a mess and needs a total rethink.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Agreed, but it is what it is and we unfortunate souls have to make the best of it

Cheers

Bruce

 

[aris]

My GP practice doesn't know me personally. They have lots of patients, and each time they speak to a patient, they refer to their patient notes. No different than a GP from Medcert looking at your notes and answering the same questions on the medical declaration - which is just a tick-in-the-box questionnaire to see if you have any of the aforementioned medical/mental issues.

 

[big ears]

Ask why you need a med cert?

It’s because the Police are looking to push the responsibility of decision if fitness to hold FAC onto others.

In light of recent events this is understandable.

As long as a medically qualified professional is willing to sign that in their opinion you are not a risk holding a FAC then the police will be oK with it.

You cannot force anyone to sign something they do not want to.

It’s a hoop we all have to jump through and it will get tighter after Plymouth.

BE

 

[mealiejimmy]

"As long as a medically qualified professional is willing to sign that in their opinion you are not a risk holding a FAC then the police will be oK with it."
That is simply not correct - it is the police who make the decision on an application, not the GP
The GP simply reviews the applicants medical records and extracts any information from them which is relevant to the questions asked on the form.
In particular, whether the applicant has ever suffered from any of the medical conditions listed on the form and, if so, what is the current status of that medical condition
The form also contains a box which the GP can, but is not obliged, to complete with any other information they may feel is relevant.
At no point in the process is the GP required to make any recommendation or give an opinion as to whether or not the applicant is suitable or a risk
Have a look at pages 18-21 of the attached FAC/SGC application form to see what is actually required of the GP

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1029689/Firearms_Form_201_-_Final__Nov_2021_.pdf

Cheers
Bruce

 

[75]

It’s because the Police are looking to push the responsibility of decision if fitness to hold FAC onto others.

I agree with @mealiejimmy - this is simply not true. The Police are simply collecting data in order to assess your applicability. In the same way they check your criminal record and look at multiple other data points. But they can't access your medical records themselves so need to do this via a medical professional.

I'm just going through renewal at the minute with Derbyshire and they provided a pro forma letter for me to submit to my GP. The following text is included:

Please note that Derbyshire Police do not seek your professional opinion as to my suitability to hold a firearms / shotgun licence, as this decision lies solely with them.

 

[aris]

@mealiejimmy is correct. What annoys me is that similar forms which require similar work (review notes and tick boxes) are half the price or less. They just don't want anything to do with it I think. They don't want the "responsiblity". Any qualified doctor can read through your notes and confirm what is in there (or more the the point - what isn't).

 

[quarrystalker]

Well I finally got my records sent to me. I started the process on 26/7/23 & received the e-mail back from them with details needed for my renewal on 12/9/23 so not too bad really. You can also keep a check online to see how the process is moving along. Yes it could of been quicker I suppose, but overall I`m happy enough with medcert, as I started the process early as my renewal isn`t until December this year.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Please explain.
Have you received a copy of your medical records, and if so, who sent them to you - or have received the completed medical form?
It's my understanding that if Medcert is used, your GP practice sends your records to Medcert who complete the medical form and then return your records to your GP practice.
There appears to be differences on what happens to the medical form after it has been completed.
For some police force areas, the form has to be sent direct to the firearms licensing department and in others it is sent to the applicant who then gives it to their FEO
In my case, my GP handed me a sealed envelope which was handed to my FEO at the time of the home visit
Concerns have been raised regarding the potential for applicants to "amend" the completed form before it gets to their firearms licensing department.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[quarrystalker]

Please explain.
Have you received a copy of your medical records, and if so, who sent them to you - or have received the completed medical form?
It's my understanding that if Medcert is used, your GP practice sends your records to Medcert who complete the medical form and then return your records to your GP practice.
There appears to be differences on what happens to the medical form after it has been completed.
For some police force areas, the form has to be sent direct to the firearms licensing department and in others it is sent to the applicant who then gives it to their FEO
In my case, my GP handed me a sealed envelope which was handed to my FEO at the time of the home visit
Concerns have been raised regarding the potential for applicants to "amend" the completed form before it gets to their firearms licensing department.

Cheers

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

I received a pdf file attached to my e-mail that contained the Firearms Licensing medical information proforma ticking boxes on it to confirm that they (medcert) have had access to my full medical records to complete their report & also ticked the box, is the medical record continuous wich again was ticked. They then have filled a section with dates when records began & end & also my last consultation. I assume my records are sent back to my Dr`s. It then goes on to a list of medical conditions with a box to tick yes/no on for 9 medical things they want to know about ie stress/depression/anxiety neurological conditions etc. The second of 2 pages asks for any information wich may be relevantto the police in determining wether the patient is safe to possess firearms & then the dr`s name & gmc no. dated & then medcert stamp. This also has it`s own QR code on it & medcert keep a copy should I need it in life of my certificate. Hope that helps with your question. Just to add again i`m with Cambridgeshire for my renewal who seem to be doing a good job so far.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Ok, thanks for the in depth reply.
I was trying to ascertain if you had been sent you medical records - which clearly you have not.
You have received a copy of the medical information pro-forma - which is what the police will want to see.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[quarrystalker]

Ok, thanks for the in depth reply.
I was trying to ascertain if you had been sent you medical records - which clearly you have not.
You have received a copy of the medical information pro-forma - which is what the police will want to see.

Cheers

Bruce

Yes that is exactly what I received. I thought I may as well do a more detailed reply, in case anyone else was seeking answers as to what you will receive from Medcert. I will be sending this off by the end of the month so will see how long it takes.

 

[Deutsch - Drahthaar]

Picked my Dr's medical report up last week and all was completed within 4 days free of charge even after I asked if I needed to settle any outstanding costs. So decided to call back later that day and give the admin staff and Dr's a £35 selection of nice chocolates to say thank you for excellent service - They were very appreciative that I had taken the time to go back and say thank you. 5 years ago same practice also completed my fitness declaration for free too.

Posted the application off to Notts Police and received a lovey email two days later stating they have received my application and are working on it but I missed a signature off so emailed missing page for me to print/sign/scan/email back.

Fantastic service from both!

 

[Island]

Bruce if as you state they are" legally entitled to do" so then why are so many of the shooting community having to outsource in order to retain any certification that they require, my point is this should be enforced, after all the doctors are not issuing the certificates only assessing you on if your of a fit state to possess one.

A minor point, but one that is well worth clarifying, is that the Doctor is categorically NOT assessing you on your fitness to possess a firearm. Their "responsibility" is simply to confirm whether or not you have ever been treated for / suffered from a proscibed list of conditions, and to add a "marker" to your NHS records.