HSE final lead ammunition consultation launched

[T.eddie]

Reading through the many comments on here I think the clear stand out point is, whatever your view is on the use of lead in whatever form of ban/no ban/ calibre/discipline you should respond to the consultation. If you don't respond, don't be surprised if things don't end up going the way you think they should

If you don't respond and put your points across then that's on you as individuals

 

[Woodenbeam]

As I wrote earlier, if you believe, based on your direct experience over many years, that there is nil/negligible exposure to birds from the use of lead shot on your shoot, and the other shoots you mention due to the habitats they take place in, perhaps you and those other shoots could submit your/their experience in consultation responses as evidence. How much or little effort you put into that is your choice. Doing nothing but having a moan on here, or having a go at me or BASC, is not going to change anything as regards the outcome of the HSE consultation.

As a general comment in response to the other posts above - less than 3000 people, including some organisations and clubs responded to the last HSE consultation with information and views. As a result the previous proposal to restrict the outdoor use of lead airgun pellets has been dropped and there are now no restrictions proposed for lead airgun pellets within the current consultation. So, whatever your shooting interest, perhaps stop wasting your spare time moaning on here and use that time to respond to the consultation as best you can. So far, 5 pages of discussion, and I think only 2 SD members have posted that they responded.

New HSE consultation launched on lead ammunition

A consultation on outdoor lead ammunition use in England, Scotland and Wales revises previous restriction proposals for lead airgun pellets.

basc.org.uk

I’ve responded to the consultation this morning however it comes across as being only open to organisations/approved persons as opposed to members of the public - I fully expect the conclusions of this consultation to have already been written by a numskull ready for submission to some vegetarian anti sat in their air conditioned orifice supping latte looking at a Cotten beeswax wrap containing a avo/green leaf tortia sarni.

 

[Liveonce]

Can you upload photo when completing the consultation?

 

[Woodenbeam]

Can you upload photo when completing the consultation?

I’m sure there are opportunities to attach/upload. Start the process & you’ll get a link to proceed, then make a coffee to refresh & get started

 

[Heym SR20]

The Lead debate will always be polarising and there are plenty of advocates on both sides. A bit like many other political debates.

My view, having spent a lot of time looking at the medical data is that there is more than enough evidence to suggest that lead even in low quantities is pretty harmful, and seems to have a fundamental effect in blocking many of the bodies ability to heal itself. There is a lot of work that needs to be done in the scientific community to fully understand the full implications. The harmfull effects of lead are well understood and have been well understood for a very long time, but have been rather brushed under the carpet by the authorities - we need soldiers now. We no longer use lead in paint, petrol, waterpipes or solders. Every body will die sometime, and not everybody will die from lead exposure.

But given what I know about lead, I have switched across to using steel in shotguns and copper bullets in my rifles when shooting live quarry. I do not want to eat lead shot game, I do not want to put lead into the food chain for others to eat, nor do I want to leave lead shot carcasses, grallochs etc. I have been using monolithic copper bullets now for a few years - enough to have every confidence that the animal will drop dead very quickly provided I put the bullet in the correct place. And on wildfowl and game provided I put the bird in the pattern steel works for me.

Target Shooting - where you can capture and contain the lead I really don't see the need to ban lead cored bullets or shot. Gallery type ranges with sand traps have always been sieved every now and then to remove the bullet fragments and recycle them. As for clay grounds, shot will fall into defined areas and it is not beyond scraping the first few inches of soil off to recover the lead if needs be, and or to design grounds with ability to trap shot. Appreciate much more difficult on clay shoots in woodland. How would you achieve this - just have a look at the level of landscaping that is happening around every town and village with all the new housing.

As for International Target and Olympic type disciplines moving to non lead. This is more of a political decision of the sporting bodies. Most other olympic disciplines evolve as technology evolves and changes. Olympic sailing no longer uses wooden keel and dinghies boats - it now uses high performance dinghies such as the 49ers or foiling windsurfers. In motor racing drivers no longer drive at 150 mph in cars with structural integrity of an aluminium coke can and multiple deaths are expected each season. They are driving carbon fibre built machines at well over 200 mph and deaths and serious injuries are pretty rare.

Old vintage guns - are really a small but very important subset of the shooting sports. I will happily use Bismuth and shoot mine occasionally. Or use a steel with a good ecowad type material. Or use shot made from new materials that are being developed.

At the end of the day though, this will be decided by the Powers that Be. Whether it is the correct approach etc and whether they will make good decisions, I have my doubts, but then we do live with an elected government, and most of us here in the UK will have cast our votes in previous elections.

 

[Bowland blades]

I've responded in favour of a lead ban with no derogations.

Lead is either acceptable or not, there are no middle grounds.

Actually there very much is a cavernous difference . The issue is 1. quantity , a club range etc and you can certainly go pick up lead all over the place , indeed many do and re-melt it . A regulary shot pheasant drive will have many thousands of small easily ingested lead number 5 -6 shot , clay grounds become like a toxic waste dump . On the other hand Estates where folks shoot deer and you would need a metal detector and a lot of hours as there will be few above the surface and scattered about in ones or two .
Myself ? I mainly shoot none toxic steel in shotgun and copper on the deer , so i wasn't really over concerned about the ban personally . I am however very pleased the government has taken a balanced approach, taking in all factors into account in the risks around lead without going to a total blanket ban for all.
I think the likes of BASC made a good effort and got more done than most of us expected and other groups perhaps dug in too deep? Then ended up overrun by their enemies ? in a battle that was never going to be ended in a total victory on all fronts .

 

[Liveonce]

. Appreciate much more difficult on clay shoots in woodland. How would you achieve this - just have a look at the level of landscaping that is happening around every town and village with all the new housing.

The large commercial grounds, may well be able to afford to alter their ground layout to facilitate recovering most of the lead shot, but they are in the minority, their are many more small Clubs than commercial clay grounds and are generally run by members for members to keep clay shooting affordable for ”all”. They probably do not own the ground they shoot over, they will probably rent it and quite possibly will not have the authority to landscape it or the machinery to do so, or be able to afford to hire it and the skilled operators. These clubs also tend to have restrictions like fibre wads only, most likely operate without planning consent shooting half a day every fortnight (as allowed).

However keeping lead shot for clay grounds is very unlikely given they know that some shooters will just then carry on using lead shot for live quarry shooting, they don’t trust us, and probably for good reason.

I may be being very pessimistic, but i see shooting in decline now, go to any clay club and look at the age and number of participants, then the frequency that they are attending. The current high price of clays and cartridges is already having an impact. I bet if you went to most game shoots it would be again the older generation shooting and likewise rifle clubs. Fishing is struggling similarly as the young of today are playing in doors computer games on play stations etc. A few may be lucky and go shooting or fishing with their dad or grandad but they are in the minority.

People are giving up shooting, the Home Office statistics show that and the trend will only continue especially if costs significantly rise, like licensing fees, GP fees, cartridges, clay, ammunition, bullets, powder, primers etc. Then they stop also due to old age.

Game shooters need lead shot gone so they can deliver on “aim to sustain”, give a public image that all the game enters the food chain, but what is being over looked is game shooting is for a few months of the year, what will remain to financially support the industry if year by year their are significant losses in all other forms of shooting?

A game bird may be £40, £50, £60 each to shoot, but what financially does the gun shop get 50p for a cartridge.

Up goes 50p down comes £50.

 

[Liveonce]

Not sure how anybody can see game shooting surviving for the long term, killing for fun which is what it is however you dress it up will never be sustainable, it’s not a sport. A sport is where athletes compete against other athletes either individually or as a team. Live pigeon shooting shooting ended with the introduction of glass balls filled with feathers which went on to be clay shooting as we know it today. Simulated game shooting using clay pigeons is popular now and will be the future in years to come, if even that survives.

Enjoy what ever shooting you do now, whilst we still can.

 

[Nimrod1960]

I shoot live game and have killed over 1500 pheasants to my own gun according to my records. Truthfully though I find it harder and harder to justify both the expense and the ethics (if there really are any) each. Apart from the social side I find stalking a far deeper experience and completely sound on an ethical basis.

 

[Woodenbeam]

But given what I know about lead, I have switched across to using steel in shotguns and copper bullets in my rifles when shooting live quarry. I do not want to eat lead shot game, I do not want to put lead into the food chain for others to eat, nor do I want to leave lead shot carcasses, grallochs etc. I have been using monolithic copper bullets now for a few years - enough to have every confidence that the animal will drop dead very quickly provided I put the bullet in the correct place. And on wildfowl and game provided I put the bird in the pattern steel works for me.

Well that’s very holy of you……………..but I see no reason why I shouldn’t use lead, & further to that I’m thinking the majority of the shooting community would side with myself (cause we’ve all buried our heads in the sand).
I resent being told what I have to do without as I see it a valid reason - this whole lead scenario is being driven by those who oppose shooting & those who are trying to make shooting ‘acceptable to townie folk’. Sorry but it’s about time people stuck their finger up and told a few people to twizzle.

 

[timbrayford]

As has been pointed out many times, there are two levels of lead poisoning.

1) acute levels where you are exposed to high levels and you become ill quickly. Breathing in lead dust, or ingesting paint.

An example reported last year

Walsall firing range staff treated for lead poisoning

The UK Health Security Agency says it is checking a recent change to ventilation at the building.

www.bbc.co.uk

2) chronic exposure where low level environmental exposure builds up in body tissues. Environmental exposure is from breathing in or ingesting lead and lead compounds. Stomach acids are about the same acid levels as battery acids so any lead ingested will be exposed to acid and will be partially dissolved and adsorbed. Smaller particles the quicker this will happen. Meat is also acidic, so lead shot in meat will also dissolve.

And lead builds up in body tissues. World Health Organisation is very clear about the dangers of lead to health.

Exposure to lead in children can bring about all sorts of deliquency. In adults problems with fertility and as we get older cognitive capacity.

There are also studies showing high correlation between elavated levels of lead in your bones and blood and the bodies ability to control disease, in particular cancers.

There are therapies being developed for cancer treatments that involve removal of lead from the body. And we are not talking about high levels, we are talking micro or indeed nano grams per litre of blood.

These have all been covered multiple times on this forum. The big challenge with lead poisoning is that other than putting it through you at high velocity, the effects of lead exposure are long term and cumulative so somewhat difficult to say that eating that lead shot duck in 1980 or cleaning off that lead paint in 2000 has brought about the leukaemia you are now dying from.

The Lead debate will always be polarising and there are plenty of advocates on both sides. A bit like many other political debates.

My view, having spent a lot of time looking at the medical data is that there is more than enough evidence to suggest that lead even in low quantities is pretty harmful, and seems to have a fundamental effect in blocking many of the bodies ability to heal itself. There is a lot of work that needs to be done in the scientific community to fully understand the full implications. The harmfull effects of lead are well understood and have been well understood for a very long time, but have been rather brushed under the carpet by the authorities - we need soldiers now. We no longer use lead in paint, petrol, waterpipes or solders. Every body will die sometime, and not everybody will die from lead exposure.

But given what I know about lead, I have switched across to using steel in shotguns and copper bullets in my rifles when shooting live quarry. I do not want to eat lead shot game, I do not want to put lead into the food chain for others to eat, nor do I want to leave lead shot carcasses, grallochs etc. I have been using monolithic copper bullets now for a few years - enough to have every confidence that the animal will drop dead very quickly provided I put the bullet in the correct place. And on wildfowl and game provided I put the bird in the pattern steel works for me.

Target Shooting - where you can capture and contain the lead I really don't see the need to ban lead cored bullets or shot. Gallery type ranges with sand traps have always been sieved every now and then to remove the bullet fragments and recycle them. As for clay grounds, shot will fall into defined areas and it is not beyond scraping the first few inches of soil off to recover the lead if needs be, and or to design grounds with ability to trap shot. Appreciate much more difficult on clay shoots in woodland. How would you achieve this - just have a look at the level of landscaping that is happening around every town and village with all the new housing.

As for International Target and Olympic type disciplines moving to non lead. This is more of a political decision of the sporting bodies. Most other olympic disciplines evolve as technology evolves and changes. Olympic sailing no longer uses wooden keel and dinghies boats - it now uses high performance dinghies such as the 49ers or foiling windsurfers. In motor racing drivers no longer drive at 150 mph in cars with structural integrity of an aluminium coke can and multiple deaths are expected each season. They are driving carbon fibre built machines at well over 200 mph and deaths and serious injuries are pretty rare.

Old vintage guns - are really a small but very important subset of the shooting sports. I will happily use Bismuth and shoot mine occasionally. Or use a steel with a good ecowad type material. Or use shot made from new materials that are being developed.

At the end of the day though, this will be decided by the Powers that Be. Whether it is the correct approach etc and whether they will make good decisions, I have my doubts, but then we do live with an elected government, and most of us here in the UK will have cast our votes in previous elections.

I use copper bullets too, not because of over exaggerated eco claims but purely because they perform very well ballistically through my rifle with excellent clean kills. I have serious reservations about the safety of steel shot and remain unconvinced that it is superior in any respect at all to lead. I only hope that should we fall victim to this wholly unnecessary lead shot ban a viable and eco friendly alternative becomes available.

 

[Liveonce]

I use copper bullets too, not because of over exaggerated eco claims but purely because they perform very well ballistically through my rifle with excellent clean kills. I have serious reservations about the safety of steel shot and remain unconvinced that it is superior in any respect at all to lead. I only hope that should we fall victim to this wholly unnecessary lead shot ban a viable and eco friendly alternative becomes available.

Steel shot is not superior or the equal of any of the other types of shot, lead, bismuth, tungsten based, the ONLY reason is is being used is because it’s considerably cheap compared to bismuth and tungsten based shot.

 

[TNStalker19]

Cant they just summarise in layman’s terms for us simple minded folk! What an article to get your teeth stuck into

 

[cjm1066]

It's a consultation they might listen.

If they are suggesting lead can be used on rifle ranges that mean specific requirements, doesn't the same aurgement apply to lead shot used on specific ranges.

Banning it for one use because your fear it will get used for another doesn't seem proportionate.

They could easily specify 28g of No 7 and 12 bore only for clays.

Muzzle loading, aside from cost does bismuth work, if it doesn't let's push for an exemption.

 

[palmer_mike]

Muzzle loading, aside from cost does bismuth work, if it doesn't let's push for an exemption.

muzzle loading rifles? No I don’t think it does work

 

[One on top of two]

.

 

[One on top of two]

It's a consultation they might listen.

Banning it for one use because your fear it will get used for another doesn't seem proportionate.

They could easily specify 28g of No 7 and 12 bore only for clays.

never in a million years , far too many shooters will put a couple of steel carts in there pocket when flighting ducks JUST in case they get caught out but there still use lead .
I have told far too many guns to pack up and bugger off on my shoots in recent years , there are just far to many that can't be trusted . And i can pretty much guarantee theres always One .

Unfortunately there are far too many tossers within all areas the sport , you only have to spend 10 mins of the different forums for find all the evidence you need of this .

We are having a meeting with the guns on our shoot about the future of of our syndicate for next year , think this year will be our last as the general thinking is its just not worth the hassle .

Sad times .

 

[StephenToast]

Actually there very much is a cavernous difference . The issue is 1. quantity , a club range etc and you can certainly go pick up lead all over the place , indeed many do and re-melt it . A regulary shot pheasant drive will have many thousands of small easily ingested lead number 5 -6 shot , clay grounds become like a toxic waste dump . On the other hand Estates where folks shoot deer and you would need a metal detector and a lot of hours as there will be few above the surface and scattered about in ones or two .
Myself ? I mainly shoot none toxic steel in shotgun and copper on the deer , so i wasn't really over concerned about the ban personally . I am however very pleased the government has taken a balanced approach, taking in all factors into account in the risks around lead without going to a total blanket ban for all.
I think the likes of BASC made a good effort and got more done than most of us expected and other groups perhaps dug in too deep? Then ended up overrun by their enemies ? in a battle that was never going to be ended in a total victory on all fronts .

Lead is either acceptable or it isn't. If it isn't it should be banned outright.

There are still ducks going into gamedealers having been shot with lead - how long ago was lead banned for waterfowl? Why do you thibk the voluntary transition isn't being taken seriously? Because shooters are already breaking a law that has been in place for years.

If there are derogations then people will just buy "target" ammo loaded with lead and use it to shoot live quarry. There is already one cretin on here posting in several threads how he will be happy to break the law if lead is banned! No wonder the ahooting community isn't taken seriously. We prove time and time again we cannot be trusted.

When lead is banned, and people continue to use it against the law, that will be the end of shooting.

 

[NullMac]

I use copper bullets too, not because of over exaggerated eco claims but purely because they perform very well ballistically through my rifle with excellent clean kills.

I hear all that. Copper is just as effective as lead. Aye right.

I have used TTSX, GSX and Blades. None of them kill as humanely as lead. Even when I pin them on the spot the deer is thrashing around. I never had to pursue an antlered male Sika into the woods until I shot bloody copper. There are better ways to spend an hour after dusk. Neither the dog nor I fancy and antler up the arse thank you very much.

I will be shooting lead for the deer's sake and mine. When I can no longer shoot lead, I will be shooting no longer and the SNP can get oot their beds in Bruntsfield and shoot the ****ing deer themselves.

 

[NullMac]

Lead is either acceptable or it isn't. If it isn't it should be banned outright.

Rubbish, it is about getting the balance right between performing a necessary activity and the risks associated with that. Lead is not particularly dangerous so there is no need for an absolute ban. If there was it would have been banned years ago along with loads of other highly toxic chemicals.