StephenToast
Well-Known Member
No it's not.
The HSE believe lead to be toxic. Otherwise they wouldn't be looking for a ban.
It's not toxic dependent upon what it's shot at is it? It either is, or it isn't.
HSE final lead ammunition consultation launched
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
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No it's not.
The HSE believe lead to be toxic. Otherwise they wouldn't be looking for a ban.
It's not toxic dependent upon what it's shot at is it? It either is, or it isn't.
Woodenbeam
Well-Known Member
Everyone’s aware lead is toxic but can’t believe the stupidity of the situation.
How about this, due to health & safety fears about people drowning in water we’ve decided to ban it - from now on no water.
It really does beggar belief the amount of time & money spent on this subject, the modern way I suppose. Have a consultation, if you don’t get the results you want have another one & then use the info gained from the first to promote your wanted agenda. Divide opinion & then have another……..continue until everybody can’t be arsed and then implement your new idea’s. People used to debate an issue & settle it, now more a case of back door politics which you aren’t aware of until too late.
it will be the end of a guys shooting if detected , as an ex-keen wildfowler I have known guys loose the licence to hold a licence over using lead.
Thing is steel shotshells have massively improved from when wildfowlers where forced into non-tox . I certainly wouldn't use lead shot because i find steel far more effective so long as we remember two simple things 1. when its effective clean kill zone is reached STOP and wait for the next opportunity , it simply doesn't seem to fade gradually 2.Forget all you know about pellet sizes
If i was going out on a fox drive i would lead ban or not go out with steel shot number 1 or BB, its supper effective being hard and it is less effected by heavy winter fur . Pheasant that are ten yards too far and hardly any will fall , shoot them bit close while walking up and even light steel loads will smash them talking steel 4 shot upwards.
Anyone who doesn't think copper bullets dont work on deer needs to buy a different brand because I have found TTSX and eCX brilliant best bullets i have ever used tbf just again be mindful again that same as steel the energy fades and expansion fades sharply as we are dealing with far less mass and a far harder material in the projectile
Lead has been under a partial and complete ban for many decades! Lead in make up , petrol , paints etc Lead is certainly dangerous removing lead from petrol has shown this very clearly to science. Many more dangerous substances exist in use today the difference is the " controls " put in place and that's what is happening with our ammo right now on a risk management basis
However is the risk management about risk to people’s health, fauna and flora or a twisted agenda to ensure the future of game shooting?
I would like to see the results of a scientific detailed risk assessment that concludes it’s ok to continue with lead in rifle and airgun for target shooting but not Clay shooting.
Their is a club not far from me that is very popular and allows air gun shooting by many members seven days a week over the same relatively small area of ground that has shot clay pigeons for many years. Both the pellets and shot fall to the same ground.
Why should the lead from one target shooting activity be safe but not the other? Possible because one risks the future of game shooting?
Lead, un-oxidised or not dissolved is fairly inert.
Depending on what type of ground you shoot on, lead pellets will work their way through the softer layers until they are in effect buried; so are mainly not an issue.
Due to the digestive system of birds they are affected if they happen to eat it.
How many shooters, or their families are recorded to suffer the effects of lead poisoning? I haven’t heard of any.
There is one shooter on here who has said they have chipped a tooth on steel shot.
There were lead pipes in our house until I was 10.
I nipped up and opened lead fishing weights well into my teens and I helped my dad make our own lead weights melting and casting the lead.
I put lead pellets into my mouth when I started air rifle shooting.
I‘ve worked on bridges where the lead paint was blasted off.
The last set of test I had, through my work, show no signs of accumulated lead in my body.
So for the statistics, that I have, indicate steel is potentially worse for my health
My grandfather had a Bolshevik bullet in his arm for 51yrs and died of old age, not lead related.
How many other armed forces personnel have (had from the WWs but now sadly passed away) bullet fragments in their bodies and have (had) normal lives.
Where are the statistics to show that ingested lead shot / bullet fragments impact on health? WHERE?
Depending on what type of ground you shoot on, lead pellets will work their way through the softer layers until they are in effect buried; so are mainly not an issue.
Due to the digestive system of birds they are affected if they happen to eat it.
How many shooters, or their families are recorded to suffer the effects of lead poisoning? I haven’t heard of any.
There is one shooter on here who has said they have chipped a tooth on steel shot.
There were lead pipes in our house until I was 10.
I nipped up and opened lead fishing weights well into my teens and I helped my dad make our own lead weights melting and casting the lead.
I put lead pellets into my mouth when I started air rifle shooting.
I‘ve worked on bridges where the lead paint was blasted off.
The last set of test I had, through my work, show no signs of accumulated lead in my body.
So for the statistics, that I have, indicate steel is potentially worse for my health
My grandfather had a Bolshevik bullet in his arm for 51yrs and died of old age, not lead related.
How many other armed forces personnel have (had from the WWs but now sadly passed away) bullet fragments in their bodies and have (had) normal lives.
Where are the statistics to show that ingested lead shot / bullet fragments impact on health? WHERE?
Stevie/P
Well-Known Member
A friend of mine got accidentally shot 4/10 by his dad of all people that was thirty years ago the pellets are still imbedded under the skin in his leg the hospital would not remove the lead shot and sent him home.
As far as I’m aware no I’ll effect to his health personally I don’t buy the argument of banning lead on the grounds of toxicity there’s a more hidden agenda on the proposed ban and I doubt we will ever know the real reason as it’s too toxic.
From the exec summary:
“Amongst consumers of high volumes of game meat that has been shot with lead ammunition (shot or bullets), there is a risk to the health of vulnerable people (young children and women of child-bearing age) that is not adequately controlled.”
I doubt there is much real life science behind this. Probably same as many other potential harms in food and chemicals. IE a risk not a certainty and only if ludicrously large amounts consumed.
Is it my perception or does this whole document have a whiff of the anti blob about it ?
Having got that off my chest, I have been using steel for birds for two seasons without issue.
The only issue I see is for the extreme high bird clan who will not admit it but prick more than they clean kill anyway and for whom the non lead ballistics don’t work. Same sort of shoots who bury birds.
I kind of get the environment bit. I did the maths a while ago. Number of shots over one drive x average loads x days per year and years shot. In some places thats allot , tons and tons of lead. Although the lead did come out of the ground in the first place
.
Anyway all we can hope for is a reasonably timed transition. Once the blob gets moving it is impossible to stop.
I am going to try non lead on rifles next but on the basis of less carcass damage.
“Amongst consumers of high volumes of game meat that has been shot with lead ammunition (shot or bullets), there is a risk to the health of vulnerable people (young children and women of child-bearing age) that is not adequately controlled.”
I doubt there is much real life science behind this. Probably same as many other potential harms in food and chemicals. IE a risk not a certainty and only if ludicrously large amounts consumed.
Is it my perception or does this whole document have a whiff of the anti blob about it ?
Having got that off my chest, I have been using steel for birds for two seasons without issue.
The only issue I see is for the extreme high bird clan who will not admit it but prick more than they clean kill anyway and for whom the non lead ballistics don’t work. Same sort of shoots who bury birds.
I kind of get the environment bit. I did the maths a while ago. Number of shots over one drive x average loads x days per year and years shot. In some places thats allot , tons and tons of lead. Although the lead did come out of the ground in the first place
.Anyway all we can hope for is a reasonably timed transition. Once the blob gets moving it is impossible to stop.
I am going to try non lead on rifles next but on the basis of less carcass damage.
Yes, this, unfortunately, and I have been on shoots where the Shoot Captain has said "Non-lead shot now please for the duck....UNLESS YOU INTEND TO TAKE THEM HOME." So I regrettably can't see (if there is to be a ban) it being other than a total ban.
But going forward in this litigious society that we live in I assume that all non lead shot marketed game will have to also carry a warning label? That "May contain steel shot with if ingested may cause risk of injury when undergoing any MRI Scanning procedures" or somesuch?
So anyone who thinks that there will be a sudden Tarsus like conversion of a British public that has never eaten pheasant before to then overnight become regular and large volume consumers of shot pheasant is living not in the islands of the United Kingdom but in Fantasy Island.
All ceded voluntarily by BASC for the sole reason of the "big bag boys" and British Game Alliance being able to defend excessive release of pheasant (on land unable to sustain naturally that number) on a spurious deflection that they are actually doing such to harvest meat to feed the people.
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So just looked to see what steel shot biodegradable wads cartridges are available as a replacement to lead shot fibre wad cartridges for clay pigeon shooting.
found these Bioammo however they claim the wads are bio-compostable which one assumes means they need picking up and putting into a composting process not just left on top of the grass as they will not then decompose, which fibre wads do.
Also some £40 per thousand more expensive than a similar lead/fibre cartridge, which is not so bad, but the wads are the going to be an issue.
So then you need to use the Eley water soluble wads and now cost jumps significantly to £419 per 1000 or £154 per thousand more expensive than lead/fibre you can kiss good by to clay shooting clubs and grounds that are fibre wads only.
found these Bioammo however they claim the wads are bio-compostable which one assumes means they need picking up and putting into a composting process not just left on top of the grass as they will not then decompose, which fibre wads do.
Also some £40 per thousand more expensive than a similar lead/fibre cartridge, which is not so bad, but the wads are the going to be an issue.
So then you need to use the Eley water soluble wads and now cost jumps significantly to £419 per 1000 or £154 per thousand more expensive than lead/fibre you can kiss good by to clay shooting clubs and grounds that are fibre wads only.
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Night òwl
Well-Known Member
Only downside to the ignore button I find is unless your logged in , you can still see the ignored persons comments.
So make sure you log in while you look through the threads
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
And is exactly this type of attitude that means that all the “townie” folk, and our legislators will make life very difficult for those of us who enjoy shooting.
And these days most who enjoy shooting, in particular those who are paying the big money are not making money from the land, but are making their money elsewhere in “townie” type occupations and then choosing to spend it rural places. They might live in “rural” locations, but are not doing “rural” jobs.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I assume you are taking the **** when saying you need to pick them up and put in the compost heap
Bio compostable means that they will break down in the soil and leaf matter. Composting is a natural process that happens to organic matter in the soil, not just in a compost heap.
Straw that is ploughed into soil, or leaves falling from trees compost down over a matter of a few months. It doesn’t disappear immediately. Many of these new bio wads are made from natural starch (mostly from corn) and fibrous materials, so add moisture, soil microbes and oxygen and they break down just like straw or a leaf. If they are eaten by an animal, then they will be digested in the stomach.
Original Plastic wads are nylon type materials that take a very long time to degrade.
I assume you are taking the **** when saying you need to pick them up and put in the compost heap
Bio compostable means that they will break down in the soil and leaf matter. Composting is a natural process that happens to organic matter in the soil, not just in a compost heap.
Straw that is ploughed into soil, or leaves falling from trees compost down over a matter of a few months. It doesn’t disappear immediately. Many of these new bio wads are made from natural starch (mostly from corn) and fibrous materials, so add moisture, soil microbes and oxygen and they break down just like straw or a leaf. If they are eaten by an animal, then they will be digested in the stomach.
Original Plastic wads are nylon type materials that take a very long time to degrade.
However on a managed clay ground where the grass is cut like that of a golf course the process you suggest does not happen, they are not in the soil, but on top, hence the use of fibre wads. Plus bio-compostable may mean in an industrial composting process, standard EN 13432 that a lot claim their wads meet.
I have various so called biodegradable wads sitting on soil exposed to the weather and they have yet to decompose in many months, even bioammo and Hull state their wads can take a long time to decompose.
Any plastic is by definition a long-chain polymer and breaking the chain is the issue, it a complex problem to solve hence the packaging industry worth many more billions than the shooting industry has yet to satisfactory do so, hence shops returning to paper bags and cardboard packaging.
I suggest to actually handle some of the wads starch was dropped years ago, they are tough stuff need to be to stop steel pellets penetrating through to the barrel. The only viable replacement to fibre wads are the water soluble or cardboard tube type.
From Bioammo
For a material to be biodegradable, there must be an organism that can feed on it and transform it into biomass. No organism has evolved to date to be able to swallow synthetic polymers such as plastic or PVA and what is currently being done is to deceive the market and the end user, who are very lost in this matter.
Why are there brands that use this material? Simply because they have no other solution.
Magic does not exist. There is no material that supports the pressure of a shot, that does not contaminate and that also disappears in hours.
For example, cardboard cartridges are an equally valid solution as Bioammo's since there are bacteria that feed on cellulose and convert it into biomass. How long does this phenomenon take to occur? It just depends on the level of bacteria. In Spain, for example, a Bioammo case at ground level could take up to 2 years to disappear. This process is greatly accelerated in environments with a higher level of bacteria such as a landfill or locations with more humidity. The exact time? As I have already told you, it depends on many factors.
Every natural process takes time to develop. Our components don't disappear that fast. What I can assure you is that they are totally compatible with life.
Best regards
BioAmmo
Ctra. Santa Maria la Real de Nieva-Nava de la Asunción.
SG 342, km 44. Santa María la Real de Nieva.
40440 - Segovia, España.
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Some thoughts I have submitted. This in response to the first question asking if a shorter time be considered for the transition of less than the proposed five years:
There would be no benefit to a shorter transition period being imposed to prohibit the use of lead ammunition in live quarry shooting with shotguns. Indeed there would be considerable disbenefit to individuals presently using shotguns less suited to use, unaltered, steel shot.
This is because a shorter period would likely "swamp" the marketplace with shotguns that nobody wanted (the trade or the public or the auction houses) and prices would be so low...if the trade or auction houses even accepted such for sale which evidence suggests they are not) that such would end being surrendered for destruction to already overworked police firearms licensing departments.
For those who did wish to retain shotguns less suited to use, unaltered, steel shot a shorter period would also likely see an increased demand for such as bismuth loaded cartridges which the manufacturers might likely be unable to cope with and in any case with demand exaggerated into a shorter time period a possible increase in the price of bismuth shot far greater than if a five year (or longer) transition were settled upon.
Additionally there are some shotguns for which there a presently no non-lead cartridges loaded. Two such being 9mm Rimfire and .22" Rimfire. Given that manufacturers are more likely to prioritise the more used calibres of 12 bore and 20 bore and then .410" gauge, 28 Bore and likely last of all 16 bore. There may indeed (within any shorter period) be no non-lead 9mm Rimfire or .22" Rimfire ever produced as the cost will not ever be recovered in sales of such non-lead alternatives.
Given that...and the HSE needs to directly ask the UK manufacturers, commercial loaders and importers of such 9mm Rimfire and .22" Rimfire...a ban on non lead shot may see that shotguns in these calibres become unusable. As there will be no ammunition for them for whilst 12, 20, .410", 28 and 16 bore can be "home loaded" with non-lead shot by enthusiasts as they use a central fire primer or "cap" rimfire cartridges cannot be home loaded.
So an unintended effect of a ban on the use on non-lead shot for live quarry will likely not only see 9mm Rimfire and .22" Rimfire guns become unusable and therefore effectively valueless it may also see these discarded guns replaced with guns of larger calibre and of greater lethality.
As the "life" of a Shotgun Certificate is five years this would enable, maybe, a natural reduction in numbers of such shotguns as many, of a certain age, decide that they will have one last renewal but at the end of that five years dispose of their shotguns as their Shotgun Certificate validity comes to its end.
There would be no benefit to a shorter transition period being imposed to prohibit the use of lead ammunition in live quarry shooting with shotguns. Indeed there would be considerable disbenefit to individuals presently using shotguns less suited to use, unaltered, steel shot.
This is because a shorter period would likely "swamp" the marketplace with shotguns that nobody wanted (the trade or the public or the auction houses) and prices would be so low...if the trade or auction houses even accepted such for sale which evidence suggests they are not) that such would end being surrendered for destruction to already overworked police firearms licensing departments.
For those who did wish to retain shotguns less suited to use, unaltered, steel shot a shorter period would also likely see an increased demand for such as bismuth loaded cartridges which the manufacturers might likely be unable to cope with and in any case with demand exaggerated into a shorter time period a possible increase in the price of bismuth shot far greater than if a five year (or longer) transition were settled upon.
Additionally there are some shotguns for which there a presently no non-lead cartridges loaded. Two such being 9mm Rimfire and .22" Rimfire. Given that manufacturers are more likely to prioritise the more used calibres of 12 bore and 20 bore and then .410" gauge, 28 Bore and likely last of all 16 bore. There may indeed (within any shorter period) be no non-lead 9mm Rimfire or .22" Rimfire ever produced as the cost will not ever be recovered in sales of such non-lead alternatives.
Given that...and the HSE needs to directly ask the UK manufacturers, commercial loaders and importers of such 9mm Rimfire and .22" Rimfire...a ban on non lead shot may see that shotguns in these calibres become unusable. As there will be no ammunition for them for whilst 12, 20, .410", 28 and 16 bore can be "home loaded" with non-lead shot by enthusiasts as they use a central fire primer or "cap" rimfire cartridges cannot be home loaded.
So an unintended effect of a ban on the use on non-lead shot for live quarry will likely not only see 9mm Rimfire and .22" Rimfire guns become unusable and therefore effectively valueless it may also see these discarded guns replaced with guns of larger calibre and of greater lethality.
As the "life" of a Shotgun Certificate is five years this would enable, maybe, a natural reduction in numbers of such shotguns as many, of a certain age, decide that they will have one last renewal but at the end of that five years dispose of their shotguns as their Shotgun Certificate validity comes to its end.
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This is respect of request for information about shotgun use for humane or emergency despatch.
Steel shot has a huge ricochet danger when fired against a hard surface be that a roadway or brickwork concrete or some surface made of metal such as a animal cage or pen. This would be a great safety risk to those involved in humane despatch be it on the highway, on the farm or in a zoo or a domestic dwelling with say an out of control dangerous dog or other animal such as a bull or in a slaughterhouse.
The use of a .410" gauge shotgun with lead shot fired at three centimeters distance in the head of an animal is commonly advocated as a safe humane method by many welfare bodies. The use or .410" gauge shotguns with non=lead ammunition which does not exist or which cannot be used through choked barrels encountered in most .410" gauge shotguns must be considered.
Present deer legislation on the use of shotguns to shoot deer causing damage on enclosed land is quite specific (in both England and Wales and separately Scotland) on what ammunition can be used. This either direct reference to weight or direct specification (implying lead pellets of a certain size) the specific weight of the projectile or projectiles in such ammunition a shorter period may not in a busy Parliamentary schedule with an intervening General Election allow legislation to be proposed, drafted, passed and enacted in a shorter time period.
Steel shot has a huge ricochet danger when fired against a hard surface be that a roadway or brickwork concrete or some surface made of metal such as a animal cage or pen. This would be a great safety risk to those involved in humane despatch be it on the highway, on the farm or in a zoo or a domestic dwelling with say an out of control dangerous dog or other animal such as a bull or in a slaughterhouse.
The use of a .410" gauge shotgun with lead shot fired at three centimeters distance in the head of an animal is commonly advocated as a safe humane method by many welfare bodies. The use or .410" gauge shotguns with non=lead ammunition which does not exist or which cannot be used through choked barrels encountered in most .410" gauge shotguns must be considered.
Present deer legislation on the use of shotguns to shoot deer causing damage on enclosed land is quite specific (in both England and Wales and separately Scotland) on what ammunition can be used. This either direct reference to weight or direct specification (implying lead pellets of a certain size) the specific weight of the projectile or projectiles in such ammunition a shorter period may not in a busy Parliamentary schedule with an intervening General Election allow legislation to be proposed, drafted, passed and enacted in a shorter time period.
This on non expanding lead ammunition for live quarry.
I extensively used non-expanding .22" Rimfire ammunition for shooting rabbits when I had a Firearm Certificate allowing me the use of a .22" Rimfire rifle for rabbit shooting as less meat was spoiled.
This on expanding ammunition for target shooting as it should be noted that all plain lead bullets are by the nature of lead "expanding"!
All lead bulleted ammunition is by its nature expanding. It does not need a hollow point it will expand without one. Lead when hitting the steel plate backstop of an indoor range or the sand trap of the butts of an outdoor range will expand. This greatly reduces risk of ricochet. I have used (unknowingy before it was then fired) steel cored Eastern European ammunition on indoor and outdoor ranges in pistols before the 1996 Firearms Act in 9mm Parabellum and 7.62mm Tokarev. The ricochets especially on steel plate backstop indoor ranges were very evident. Non lead ammunition is less safe than lead ammunition.
I extensively used non-expanding .22" Rimfire ammunition for shooting rabbits when I had a Firearm Certificate allowing me the use of a .22" Rimfire rifle for rabbit shooting as less meat was spoiled.
This on expanding ammunition for target shooting as it should be noted that all plain lead bullets are by the nature of lead "expanding"!
All lead bulleted ammunition is by its nature expanding. It does not need a hollow point it will expand without one. Lead when hitting the steel plate backstop of an indoor range or the sand trap of the butts of an outdoor range will expand. This greatly reduces risk of ricochet. I have used (unknowingy before it was then fired) steel cored Eastern European ammunition on indoor and outdoor ranges in pistols before the 1996 Firearms Act in 9mm Parabellum and 7.62mm Tokarev. The ricochets especially on steel plate backstop indoor ranges were very evident. Non lead ammunition is less safe than lead ammunition.
like where your going enfieldspares however don’t think the HSE will care about any financial loss we may suffer as a consequence of banning lead shot, they will just see it as if you want to shoot then that‘s your choice.
Possibly suggest to them that compensation is paid for guns that are no longer fit for purpose and any unused lead shot cartridges. However the government experienced the pain and cost of that with the handgun ban.
I will submit a response to the consultation but hope to support it with some photos which i can only get at the weekend.
Possibly suggest to them that compensation is paid for guns that are no longer fit for purpose and any unused lead shot cartridges. However the government experienced the pain and cost of that with the handgun ban.
I will submit a response to the consultation but hope to support it with some photos which i can only get at the weekend.
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