HSE final lead ammunition consultation launched

[enfieldspares]

This in regard to zeroing when live quarry shooting.

I zero or more correctly check zero almost every time before I use it for live quarry shooting. Most estates where stalking is purchased insist it is done to prove the rifle is accurate and sighted to point of aim and its user competent with it.

 

[enfieldspares]

This on the General Comments section.

Why was the New Zealand law to the use of lead shot in shotguns not considered by the HSE? I provide a link below to New Zealand Fish and Game's rules and reasoning behind such rules. AND THEIR 200 METRE RULE FOR ALL LEAD SHOT USE. This would have been the sensible way to address the use of lead shot for BOTH live quarry shooting and clay or artificial target shooting with shotguns and is a result of the New Zealand Government applying scientific opinion to the matter. Note also that in New Zealand the the .410" gauge shotgun is exempted form their lead shot ban. An internet search for "New Zealand Fish and Game lead shot" will link to the New Zealand Government rules.

Non Toxic Shot Regulations | Fish and Game

In New Zealand it is compulsory to use non-toxic shot when hunting waterfowl with any gun using a 10 or 12 gauge cartridge for all areas,

fishandgame.org.nz

 

[timbrayford]

No it's not.

The HSE believe lead to be toxic. Otherwise they wouldn't be looking for a ban.

It's not toxic dependent upon what it's shot at is it? It either is, or it isn't.

But no proposals to ban lead flashing

 

[stubear]

So just looked to see what steel shot biodegradable wads cartridges are available as a replacement to lead shot fibre wad cartridges for clay pigeon shooting.

found these Bioammo however they claim the wads are bio-compostable which one assumes means they need picking up and putting into a composting process not just left on top of the grass as they will not then decompose, which fibre wads do.
Also some £40 per thousand more expensive than a similar lead/fibre cartridge, which is not so bad, but the wads are the going to be an issue.

So then you need to use the Eley water soluble wads and now cost jumps significantly to £419 per 1000 or £154 per thousand more expensive than lead/fibre you can kiss good by to clay shooting clubs and grounds that are fibre wads only.

This is a huge concern for me - I love clay shooting but all my grounds are fibre wad only so if we go to steel the “cheap” stuff is plastic wad so won’t be allowed and the expensive stuff is prohibitively expensive.

If you’re talking ~£40 for ammo and the same again for the round that makes a 100 bird shoot an expensive proposal if you’re hoping to go even semi regularly!

 

[stubear]

Another point to note here about single use plastics - whilst cartridge cases are single use they have the benefit that shooters can collect them as they use them and ensure they get recycled.

Plastic wads required for steel shot get littered around the countryside and either don’t get picked up, or require a substantial manual effort to collect.

 

[NullMac]

No it's not.

The HSE believe lead to be toxic. Otherwise they wouldn't be looking for a ban.

It's not toxic dependent upon what it's shot at is it? It either is, or it isn't.

More bollox.

If you bother to read the documentation you will see that they are not looking for a total ban. There are exclusions where they recognise that it is not possible to replace lead. If they were "looking for a ban" then their attitude would be tough **** all lead is banned and if that means you have to stop doing something then tough. Its not what it says, is it ?

The risk to human consumption is hugely based on what its shot at.

Shoot a rat with lead and there is no risk to humans as no-one eats rats here.

Measured levels in deer that have been shot normally and had damaged areas removed are in line with farmed meat.

Measured levels in game birds are high. Consumption of large amounts of game birds is therefore a higher risk to humans.

It ain't toxic to humans if you don't injest it or breath it in.

Nice to live in a simple black and white world, eh? Try reading around the subject and bring some nuance and balance to your life.

 

[StephenToast]

More bollox.

If you bother to read the documentation you will see that they are not looking for a total ban. There are exclusions where they recognise that it is not possible to replace lead. If they were "looking for a ban" then their attitude would be tough **** all lead is banned and if that means you have to stop doing something then tough. Its not what it says, is it ?

The risk to human consumption is hugely based on what its shot at.

Shoot a rat with lead and there is no risk to humans as no-one eats rats here.

Measured levels in deer that have been shot normally and had damaged areas removed are in line with farmed meat.

Measured levels in game birds are high. Consumption of large amounts of game birds is therefore a higher risk to humans.

It ain't toxic to humans if you don't injest it or breath it in.

Nice to live in a simple black and white world, eh? Try reading around the subject and bring some nuance and balance to your life.

Do you have trouble reading?

 

[StephenToast]

But no proposals to ban lead flashing

irrelevant.

 

[csl]

Do you people have to argue like this?

 

[Smellydog]

Do you people have to argue like this?

It's an emotive subject for some of us.

Some don't care, their shooting interests are modern and contemporary, their choice of firearms can deal with the possible changes and thus they ignor the possible underlying prejudice.
Others, like myself have a wider scope of firearms. Much older disciplines, firearms not so readily able to function without lead.
We therefore feel very strongly and suspect prejudice at the heart of all this. Back door politics. Liberty and freedom of choice threatened for what amounts to a very tangible fat nothing!
So yep, it's gonna cause a row!

 

[csl]

So yep, it's gonna cause a row!

But you don't have to stoop to lazy name calling etc., surely?

Read this if you haven't already.

Posting in Argumentative Threads

I was hoping this would be obvious but if you don't like someone, don't like their posts or don't like their point of view you: 1) don't have the right to post belittling, insulting, rude posts in their threads for the sake of stirring up an argument, or indeed for any other reason. 2) do have...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

Edit: @Smellydog, you might not have seen it all...

 

[Smellydog]

But you don't have to stoop to lazy name calling etc., surely?

Read this if you haven't already.

Posting in Argumentative Threads

I was hoping this would be obvious but if you don't like someone, don't like their posts or don't like their point of view you: 1) don't have the right to post belittling, insulting, rude posts in their threads for the sake of stirring up an argument, or indeed for any other reason. 2) do have...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

Edit: @Smellydog, you might not have seen it all...

Agreed.

 

[Bowland blades]

However is the risk management about risk to people’s health, fauna and flora or a twisted agenda to ensure the future of game shooting?

I would like to see the results of a scientific detailed risk assessment that concludes it’s ok to continue with lead in rifle and airgun for target shooting but not Clay shooting.

Their is a club not far from me that is very popular and allows air gun shooting by many members seven days a week over the same relatively small area of ground that has shot clay pigeons for many years. Both the pellets and shot fall to the same ground.

Why should the lead from one target shooting activity be safe but not the other? Possible because one risks the future of game shooting?

Size of the pellet maybe ? Ease of collecting from simple backstops ?

 

[Liveonce]

photos obtained, HSE consultation completed.

 

[Liveonce]

Size of the pellet maybe ? Ease of collecting from simple backstops ?

We do have three backstops but they are really provided for FAC use. air gun shooters just place targets of various types at various distances so the pellets fall to the ground anywhere just as the shot does.
Pellet’s that hit steel targets tend to break apart so are not recovered.

 

[andyk]

Their is a club not far from me that is very popular and allows air gun shooting by many members seven days a week over the same relatively small area of ground that has shot clay pigeons for many years. Both the pellets and shot fall to the same ground.

Why should the lead from one target shooting activity be safe but not the other? Possible because one risks the future of game shooting?

I’m not in favour of any ban, so there’s no element of “one should be banned but the other shouldn’t” in my take on that but the difference in volume is huge.

If a clay shooter fires 50x 28gm cartridges in a round they’ll fire off 1.4kg of lead, spread over a large area given the nature of a shotgun (wide pattern and ability to fire at the clay at any sensible point in its flight).

To deposit the same amount of lead, an airgun user would need to fire 1,440 .22 pellets (at 15gr) or 2,540 .177 pellets (at 8.5gr) so around 3 or 5 tins respectively. Those pellets will also be in the direct vicinity of a static target.

 

[Liveonce]

The current HSE consultation looks to be not about the HSE changing any proposals but rather how long or short should the transition period be for the total ban on lead shot.

Think a total ban will be a challenge to do in even five years, a two part ban, could be quicker, ban lead for live game in two years (2025) and then three years later ban all lead shot.

But current economic world circumstances and the Ukraine war will certainly make it a challenge, it’s not like we currently make powders, primers, cases, or steel shot in the U.K. so a lot is outside are direct control.

 

[Bowland blades]

We do have three backstops but they are really provided for FAC use. air gun shooters just place targets of various types at various distances so the pellets fall to the ground anywhere just as the shot does.
Pellet’s that hit steel targets tend to break apart so are not recovered.

we talking FTR here ? of course you can collect the lead but you will also have familiar layouts repeated. airgun on steel do not really break apart but they do really flatten out and on the 8 yard reducers they hurt when they come back and hit you ( enough to do an eye ) i stopped shooting at them full stop after a strike to the neck. hate to think how much lead there is in some woods from weekly airgun shooting grounds but its certainly no longer acceptable and we all knew that well previous to the lead ban . Strange that airguns had none toxic ammo out way early back in the early eighties i remember sabo and the Prometheus yet nobody really got it right or took it further till very recently .

 

[LuckyEddie]

we talking FTR here ? of course you can collect the lead but you will also have familiar layouts repeated. airgun on steel do not really break apart but they do really flatten out and on the 8 yard reducers they hurt when they come back and hit you ( enough to do an eye ) i stopped shooting at them full stop after a strike to the neck. hate to think how much lead there is in some woods from weekly airgun shooting grounds but its certainly no longer acceptable and we all knew that well previous to the lead ban . Strange that airguns had none toxic ammo out way early back in the early eighties i remember sabo and the Prometheus yet nobody really got it right or took it further till very recently .

It‘s HFT and the targets vary including up in trees as per the screenshot below (interesting that the target appears to be adjacent to / over water).

I tried Prometheus and Sabo in my Original 45 that I had at the time but they fouled the barrel with plastic residue and weren’t accurate.
My HW80 .20 is very pellet fussy and only shoots the lighter H&N FTT pellets (was Bisley Superfields but they were discontinued).
The Loguns and Dynamics, which were environmentally friendly, didn’t group well and if people don’t buy them then the manufacturer stops production.

I have shot air rifles for 40yrs and eaten squirrels, rabbits, pigeons partridges and pheasants all shot by myself with no ill effects as it’s simple to remove the pellet if a body shot was required.

And before people jump, I did have permission for the partridges and pheasants
(maybe not the rabbits and pigeons at times mind!)

 

[timbrayford]

irrelevant.

On the contrary if lead is so toxic that it must be banned as you claim then surely it must apply to all uses? Perhaps the amazing thing is that when you buy lead at a builders merchant you don't have to sign the poisons register, an oversight by HSE & UK REACH it would appear.