Legal Advice- is there a 3000 ft lbs limit for UK deer use ? Some police forces believe there is.

[billy_boyle_2010]

It doesn’t state it’s unsuitable for UK deer!!

It suggests UK deer does not constitute good reason for what in the view of the home office is a dangerous game calibre.

Thanks for the clarification

But either way- it sounds like anything with ft lbs around the dangerous game level is enough for the police to argue against.

 

[kenbro]

I hold a .375 for deer - it was not a 'tick box' exercise. I had to (no surprise) show 'good reason' - I then had to have a telephone conversation with the FLM (retired Police Inspector), who through gritted teeth, eventually authorised the variation.

Incidentally he also authorised twenty (20) rounds of ammunition. Twenty rounds! I phoned him back.

"It's not enough blah, blah, blah".

"OK. I will increase it to thirty (30) rounds".

"You do know them sell them in boxes of twenty?"

"OK. I will increase it to forty (40) rounds"


I have had less painful extractions at the dentist.

View attachment 343687


When he retired, the new chap increased it to 120 rounds without my even asking.

It is quite right, that in law there is no maximum ME for deer - but as we all know, we are at the mercy of the whims, interpretations and bias of individuals.

Good reason (a real 'good reason') is always worth a run. A pal got a .300WM for deer on Islay - which can be fairly long distance shooting (he is domiciled South of the Wall).

Apropos Islay, I am off there next (2025) January, but will be taking the .308 - or should I take the .375?

So Stalker, are you going next year or the year after?
Would be okay being a year early but a year late would suck. .
Ken.

 

[doric_prince]

Thanks for the clarification

But either way- it sounds like anything with ft lbs around the dangerous game level is enough for the police to argue against.

Only if you give them reason for making that argument. If you are dedicated enough in setting out a counter argument (as you appear to be, from looking at your posts in this thread) and can do so with a sound evidence base and proficiency; then you should be able to win that argument before it’s even started .

or alternatively accept the argument in favour of the FEO and with it (assuming) acceptance that this guidance is law.

you have options, But to answer your question in the title of the thread you initially posted;

is there a 3000 ft lbs limit for UK deer use ?​

answer: no

good night and good luck!

 

[User00040]

Alright then, who has a 50BMG for AOLQ?

 

[doric_prince]

Alright then, who has a 50BMG for AOLQ?

It’s not on the home office guidelines table- so must be fine for rats up to elephants.

 

[NullMac]

Is it then legal for FEOs to use this as a guide or starting point for which calibres can be cleared for UK use ?

Well self evidently yes. It is guidance issued by the Home Office specifically for this purpose therefore how can it not be legal for them to use it as a guide?

But it is guidance not legal limits. Make a case and you should (!) be able to do something outwith the guidance. Obviously that is subjective, and FEOs may take a more or less convincing.

As per posts above, I have a mate that has a 338 Lapua for deer.

 

[NullMac]

Agreed. But from what I have gathered - some forces are using it as a firm guideline- and the bar of requirement to show "good reason" is higher as a result :s

Yes, isn't that the point? It the guide so most requests will fall within these categories and it will be by exception that something else is granted. Otherwise everyone is running about with a 338L for deer which is not desirable?

 

[njc110381]

I can only speak for the general opinion of my force, at the last point that I dealt with them.

Calibre seems to be a big deal. If the list says .30 for deer then they will grant a .30 for deer. In my case I asked for a .375 Winchester for deer and they said no. .375 is on the list for dangerous game so it's not suitable for deer. No amount of reasoning would shift them, even giving info on the energy levels etc from reputable sources which they could reference. In the next breath though, they gave me a .416 for boar. There is no list for boar so they don't have to adhere to it. At that point they seem to fall back on the fact that the smaller of the dangerous game cartridges may also be conditioned for use here once good reason has been established elsewhere - Gloucestershire read that as .416, but not .458.

The next step is to ask for the .375 Win for boar. They put AOLQ on everything anyway so the whole system is a farce. I could literally shoot a mouse with my .416 Rigby.

 

[timbrayford]

I’d love to know how they came by these “categories”

Chief of police's mate in the pub?

 

[timbrayford]

Yes, isn't that the point? It the guide so most requests will fall within these categories and it will be by exception that something else is granted. Otherwise everyone is running about with a 338L for deer which is not desirable?

Not desirable?

 

[timbrayford]

I actually think the categories are a fairly sensible place to start. One has to draw lines somewhere. It must save a lot of time for 9/10 applications.

Draw the line somewhere? Sometimes the shooting community can be it's own worst enemy

 

[Dickie]

It shouldn’t matter if you have an open FAC as there is no deader than dead, so under gunned yes but over not at all.

 

[Selous]

This is a subject our shooting organisations need to be involved with. @Conor O'Gorman can you let everyone know what the BASC party line is on this matter please.

 

[nic531]

That guidance list is SO flawed, with ME figures obtained from god knows where, and a massive lack of popular chamberings, it's little surprise that FEO's, most of whom have never fired a rifle, have a clue how to judge what is, or isn't a suitable calibre/chambering !

The guidance so desperately needs completely updating.

One of the good things that came out of the Plymouth incident that I have been told about by a family member who is an FEO is the requirement that any new FEO's have practical firearm experience such as Military, Police firearms unit or sporting shooter. This may help with a little more understanding.

 

[User00040]

This is a subject our shooting organisations need to be involved with. @Conor O'Gorman can you let everyone know what the BASC party line is on this matter please.

Can't agree with that, it's down to an individual's choice.

BASC have caused enough damage already.

 

[User00040]

One of the good things that came out of the Plymouth incident that I have been told about by a family member who is an FEO is the requirement that any new FEO's have practical firearm experience such as Military, Police firearms unit or sporting shooter. This may help with a little more understanding.

Based on recent 'job opportunities' advertised here, it seems that having a low salary expectation is the only strict requirement.

 

[Apthorpe]

You need good reason for every firearm in your cabinet , make your case . The fact is .243 up will do the job on any UK deer so we are dealing with why you need something more than the Normal .

So why is there any distinction between them? A .243 does precisely the same job to an animal as a .700NE. Muzzle energy is not a relevant issue. The number of firearms is the relevant issue so far as good reason is concerned. ALL centrefire rifles are equally dangerous, although the smaller calibres are more likely to cause harm to the public in criminal hands.
It would be for the benefit of all, if this idiotic focus on muzzle energy was dropped. It is the result of the overactive imagination of sub-par senior police officers of low intelligence.

It helps a lot if you have lots of verifiable experience and your not starting to look like a gun collector.

Being a gun collector is not illegitimate.

The fact is in the UK keeping firearms is ultimately a privilege in law and there is no get around to that so tread carefully and get your evidence and reason for more sound

 

[timbrayford]

This is a subject our shooting organisations need to be involved with. @Conor O'Gorman can you let everyone know what the BASC party line is on this matter please.

Please don't bring BASC into this, they might go to John Swift's chum Mark Avery for guidance?

 

[Heym SR20]

Probably the most straightforward way of getting a long range calibre is to join a Home Office Approved Rifle club that specialises in long range shooting.

The good reason is thus validated. After a bit of time, getting it authorised for deer stalking as a secondary reason will be easier.

In our club we have several members with big rifles up to and including 375 type mega blasters (make the 375 H&H look kind of mild). They are fantastic for shooting long range targets but they are long and heavy.

For stalking purposes I suspect its a case of spot deer, shoot deer. Lock up the rifle, and then spend a day hiking in to find the carcass and extracting it

 

[Bowland blades]

For the life of me as much as i like big guns ........ I just cannot think why i need any more superfluous weight and recoil , noise , within the UK ? A 243 win will normally exit the cavity of a red stag at pretty decent range and the correct bullet. 7mm or 30 magnums still come under being granted for deer at the end of the day . I suppose it keeps FEO's away from the important really useful, deer class cartridges and guys who travel out to Africa for big game have reason to take them out here now and again ?