HSE asks for extension to timeline for lead ammunition review

[NoIDeer]

And finally summary of the new treatments for cancers

Science - Pleco Therapeutics

www.plecotherapeutics.com

And

Press release - Pleco Therapeutics

www.plecotherapeutics.com

Not sure that's helpful it looks like it is a "lead compound, PTX-252 for the treatment of Acute Myeloid Leukaemia (AML). " Very interesting though.

It is obvious that lead is harmful, copper is harmful, everything can be harmful. Where is the evidence that it is doing harm in the areas that have already been addressed. Lots of conjecture, lots of evidence of raised lead levels, where is the evidence of harm?

I personally will be glad to see lead gone but a good alternative that's works well needs to be in place.

 

[Smellydog]

Lead ammo provided it goes into a sand trap is good. But I wouldn’t want to be the one having to sift the sand unless you are wearing a good dust mask.

Lead going into anything that will end up in human or natures food chain I do not think is a good idea at all. Its not good for anyones health, nor do we want to have any accusation that we are harming wildlife.

Yeah but relatively compared to tobacco, alcoholism, pesticides, herbicides, slurry etc shooting with lead is quite safe don't you agree?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Not sure that's helpful it looks like it is a "lead compound, PTX-252 for the treatment of Acute Myeloid Leukaemia (AML). " Very interesting though.

It is obvious that lead is harmful, copper is harmful, everything can be harmful. Where is the evidence that it is doing harm in the areas that have already been addressed. Lots of conjecture, lots of evidence of raised lead levels, where is the evidence of harm?

I personally will be glad to see lead gone but a good alternative that's works well needs to be in place.

The key issue is the use of lead shot in the open countryside for all forms of live quarry shooting and the impact on various species of birds ingesting that lead shot as grit. The lead shot grinds in their acidic gizzards and toxic lead salts are absorbed into the bloodstream and find their way into the tissues of vital organs. Death occurs in a few days or weeks, depending on how much lead shot a bird eats. For those that survive, their behaviour, resistance to diseases, mobility and ability to breed are affected. That risk can only be reduced by voluntarily moving away from lead shot where we can - we can do so in a phased manner via voluntary transition or we can face a cliff edge of legislation with a lack of alternatives for many guns. In summary, BASC's argument to HSE is that the voluntary transition is progressing despite unforeseen world events so no need for legal changes as regards banning lead shot for live quarry shooting.

Here is the GWCT advice:

Lead Ammunition - Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust

www.gwct.org.uk

Here is BASC's response to HSE:

BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

Read BASC's response to the Health and Safety Executive's socio-economic consultation on proposals to restrict the use of lead ammunition.

basc.org.uk

 

[NoIDeer]

Not sure that's helpful it looks like it is a "lead compound, PTX-252 for the treatment of Acute Myeloid Leukaemia (AML)

@Heym SR20 my apology, more reading give "lead" pronounced leed. Rest of the post stands.

 

[timbrayford]

Thanks.

They have asked for more time to sort through relevant information and evidence, before they can propose recommendations to the Secretary of State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. They were not expecting this volume of responses. The same happened in 2022. They expected a few hundred responses at most and received 2667 responses and requested an extra 6 months for that stage of review. To put that in context, for a similar consultation in EU, by the European Chemicals Agency that 2667 figure was way more responses than submitted by hunters from across the EU. And again for last year's consultation, they would have expected less than 2667 from the previous consultation - again based on EU process - but instead they got over 3 times as many responses.

As regards pre-agreed outcomes, yes, I think that was perhaps where things stood at the start of the review in 2021. But they have shifted based on responses from BASC and others, namely dropping plans to ban lead airgun pellets and conceded that target shooting with lead rifle ammunition should be allowed to continue at approved ranges.

In BASC's latest response (see BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation ) we continued to push back against all the remaining restriction proposals and hopefully we will see more of them dropped for the final recommendations going to the Minister. Once that happens its then a political issue.

In short a weak response from BASC has achieved at best a few hoped for token concessions?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Yeah but relatively compared to tobacco, alcoholism, pesticides, herbicides, slurry etc shooting with lead is quite safe don't you agree?

If the HSE was tasked to look at any or all those things to ensure seamless chemicals trade with EU then it would look into it and make recommendations to the government. In fact it has been tasked with looking into some of those things - have a look here: UK REACH: UK REACH Explained

Following Brexit the government needed to create new laws on the regulation of chemicals so that the trade in various substances between GB and EU could continue. Northern Ireland trade is being covered under the NI Protocol but that could change soon.

Anyway the HSE was tasked as the agency responsible for the implementation of the regulations (called UK REACH) and in 2021 it was announced that the first two substances to be reviewed would be lead in ammunition and certain chemicals in tattoo inks: emulating similar reviews in the EU. Many more substances have since been reviewed and some banned.

The approach the HSE has taken, and is taking with its other reviews, is looking at the risks and investigating where it is feasible to reduce those risks to a ‘nil or negligible’ level.

We could blame Brexit but on the other hand if it were not for Brexit we would be facing even more draconian EU lead ban proposals than those currently proposed by the HSE – but in any case we are also fighting those proposals as FACE members.

The HSE does not create laws, it can only make recommendations and submit these to the Defra secretary of state for consideration. The government may decide not to act on the HSE recommendations.

As mentioned earlier we have made progress on lead airgun pellets and lead rifle ammunition, but nothing can be taken for granted and more work is needed for all shooting disciplines.

Furthermore, BASC has said that if it has concerns that any resulting legislative proposals are disproportionate and will damage shooting, we will lobby for them to be revised.

I have spent a fair bit of time on here explaining things so @Smellydog a bit of support and trust that we are trying to do the right thing in the face a challenging and complex issue would be much appreciated.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

In short a weak response from BASC has achieved at best a few hoped for token concessions?

Sorry, that is nonsense. Are you saying that no ban on lead airgun pellets for target and live quarry shooting is a token concession? That effects 1-2 million shooters. Also target shooting with rifle ammunition and potentially live quarry shooting with rifle ammunition - does that not help you? Lead shot is still in the mix. Have you seen what is happening in EU on the same proposals that the HSE started with? The EU proposals are largely unchanged and here in the UK we are pushing back successfully on the HSE proposals. Support would be appreciated going forwards. Please.

 

[jimmer.13]

But @Conor O'Gorman, you are forgetting that many on SD believe that the UK, along with all its people, flora and fauna all behave very differently biologically to flora and fauna elsewhere in the world.

And just because scientists in the state of California have demonstrated that lead is very harmful to condors, and scientists in Houston Texas have shown clear links between lead and leukaemia, there are plenty on SD that believe none of such findings can apply to the UK.

Even worse is any research that has been done in Europe.

The only things they believe are whats shown on GB News, comes out of the mouth Boris, Trump or Farage, or written in the Telegraph.

Otherwise it’s all just left wing propaganda.

Oh the earth is still of course flat, and Bonacons and Unicorns are real.

 

[Liveonce]

If the HSE was tasked to look at any or all those things to ensure seamless chemicals trade with EU then it would look into it and make recommendations to the government. In fact it has been tasked with looking into some of those things - have a look here: UK REACH: UK REACH Explained

Following Brexit the government needed to create new laws on the regulation of chemicals so that the trade in various substances between GB and EU could continue. Northern Ireland trade is being covered under the NI Protocol but that could change soon.

Please do not take this as a criticism, is it the seamless trade with the EU the chemical or the product using the chemical? i.e. importing (or exporting, doubt we do that) lead shot, or importing or exporting the product, cartridges containing lead.
As the EU would be the loser if we just stopped importing EU manufactured cartridges as the imports must far exceed cartridges we exports to the EU.
We could then just manufacture lead shot in the U.K. and cartridges which would be a win, win situation for UK manufactures and ignore the need for seamless trade with the EU.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Please do not take this as a criticism, is it the seamless trade with the EU the chemical or the product using the chemical? i.e. importing (or exporting, doubt we do that) lead shot, or importing or exporting the product, cartridges containing lead.
As the EU would be the loser if we just stopped importing EU manufactured cartridges as the imports must far exceed cartridges we exports to the EU.
We could then just manufacture lead shot in the U.K. and cartridges which would be a win, win situation for UK manufactures and ignore the need for seamless trade with the EU.

As I understand it, it is the chemical or the product using the chemical. The HSE is engaged in many reviews - see UK REACH - HSE

 

[jimmer.13]

But @Conor O'Gorman, you are forgetting that many on SD believe that the UK, along with all its people, flora and fauna all behave very differently biologically to flora and fauna elsewhere in the world.

And just because scientists in the state of California have demonstrated that lead is very harmful to condors, and scientists in Houston Texas have shown clear links between lead and leukaemia, there are plenty on SD that believe none of such findings can apply to the UK.

Even worse is any research that has been done in Europe.

The only things they believe are whats shown on GB News, comes out of the mouth Boris, Trump or Farage, or written in the Telegraph.

Otherwise it’s all just left wing propaganda.

Oh the earth is still of course flat, and Bonacons and Unicorns are real.

You are Femi Oluwole and I claim my £5

 

[Smellydog]

If the HSE was tasked to look at any or all those things to ensure seamless chemicals trade with EU then it would look into it and make recommendations to the government. In fact it has been tasked with looking into some of those things - have a look here: UK REACH: UK REACH Explained

Following Brexit the government needed to create new laws on the regulation of chemicals so that the trade in various substances between GB and EU could continue. Northern Ireland trade is being covered under the NI Protocol but that could change soon.

Anyway the HSE was tasked as the agency responsible for the implementation of the regulations (called UK REACH) and in 2021 it was announced that the first two substances to be reviewed would be lead in ammunition and certain chemicals in tattoo inks: emulating similar reviews in the EU. Many more substances have since been reviewed and some banned.

The approach the HSE has taken, and is taking with its other reviews, is looking at the risks and investigating where it is feasible to reduce those risks to a ‘nil or negligible’ level.

We could blame Brexit but on the other hand if it were not for Brexit we would be facing even more draconian EU lead ban proposals than those currently proposed by the HSE – but in any case we are also fighting those proposals as FACE members.

The HSE does not create laws, it can only make recommendations and submit these to the Defra secretary of state for consideration. The government may decide not to act on the HSE recommendations.

As mentioned earlier we have made progress on lead airgun pellets and lead rifle ammunition, but nothing can be taken for granted and more work is needed for all shooting disciplines.

Furthermore, BASC has said that if it has concerns that any resulting legislative proposals are disproportionate and will damage shooting, we will lobby for them to be revised.

I have spent a fair bit of time on here explaining things so @Smellydog a bit of support and trust that we are trying to do the right thing in the face a challenging and complex issue would be much appreciated.

You are quite appealing when you are assertive... keep up the good work

 

[terrier1]

Furthermore, BASC has said that if it has concerns that any resulting legislative proposals are disproportionate and will damage shooting, we will lobby for them to be revised.

Can I ask Connor how will BASC fight anything that they are not happy with when you have already said that the shooting organisations that have signed ALL the shooters in the UK up to a voluntary move away from lead for live quarry shooting.
And if BASC and yourself do think this is not going to damage shooting I believe you are totally out of touch with what is happening out in the real world.
And how did the lobbying go on the medical requirements on gun licencing?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Can I ask Connor how will BASC fight anything that they are not happy with when you have already said that the shooting organisations that have signed ALL the shooters in the UK up to a voluntary move away from lead for live quarry shooting.
And if BASC and yourself do think this is not going to damage shooting I believe you are totally out of touch with what is happening out in the real world.
And how did the lobbying go on the medical requirements on gun licencing?

BASC is fighting the HSE restriction proposals for all the reasons discussed already but if you have not already done so you can read our consultation response which puts the voluntary transition into context in that regard: BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

As regards your other query on firearms licensing, mandatory involvement of GPs and a review of the length of a certificate were amongst the topics covered in last year's Home Office consultation and we await the outcome of that whilst continuing to brief politicians and the media on firearms licensing and preparing for an expected Home Office consultation on firearms licensing fees.

 

[Mike L]

Patience of a saint Conor

 

[homer]

I think one of the key points for me in the preamble to the latest doc to come from HSE on this issue was the very high proportion of ducks going through the trade which had been shot with lead. Despite this being illegal for many years. So can the shooting community be trusted to self regulate ? Any impartial outside observer would conclude clearly not.

We reap what we sow !

Suppose it depends on where the ducks were shot, as its still legal to shoot ducks in Scotland with lead, as long as your not over wetland,lakes etc

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Update in Shooting Times here:

HSE requests more time for its review on lead ban - ShootingUK

The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) has requested that the timeline be extended for the final stage of its lead ammunition review in England, Wales and Scotland. The move comes following the HSE consultation in December on the socio-economic assessment of restriction proposals. More than 8,000...

www.shootinguk.co.uk

 

[NullMac]

Oh, ok. So the SNP will just ban it irrespective of what the review says then. Hadn't quite grasped that

 

[Smellydog]

"The shooting community has been campaigning for a voluntary transition away from lead shot and single-use plastics for live quarry shooting over a five-year period."

I haven't and I don't know anyone else that has either .
Am I an outcast

 

[palmer_mike]

I haven't and I don't know anyone else that has either .
Am I an outcast

No you’re not an outcast. In my experience you’re part of the majority (by a large margin) view within the shooting community.