Monolithic Ammunition

[Top Spanish Hunting]

I would like to talk about monolithic ammunition to see what opinion you have about it. I have used the barnes and they have worked very well with large animals such as large deer and wild boars. It also works well with roe deer but I have noticed that these always run before dying, not like with soft tips that fall in place. Logically, the penetration is great and what stands out most about this ammunition is taking it in as few grains as possible. They normally expand less, especially when thrown with slow calibers or above 200 meters. With fewer grains we get that extra speed that results in greater expansion on impact at higher speeds. This where hunted with Barnes Bullets, all clear passes through the animal.

 

[Heym SR20]

Depends on which Barnes you are using. The original was a pretty hard bullet. The TTSX is designed to expand more.

On Roe with my 7x65R i have been using the RWS HIT bullet - also quite a hard bullet . Shot placement is in line the leg and half way up the body. This drops them immediately. There is a little shoulder damage but with a monolithic its minimal - you loose about a burgers worth of meat. With this shot placement you impact the big bundle of nerves under the shoulder blades and shock is carried up to the spine as well as taking out top of heart and major blood vessels. I rarely get a runner. If I do it because bullet has gone a bit far back due to operator error.

 

[jp 7saum]

I’ve shot a fair amount of roe with Barnes lrx and they perform very well but I’ve heard the Sako blades are also very good.

 

[Top Spanish Hunting]

we normally lung shot them here. in spain we hunt them a lot in plains and is usual to shoot them over 200 meters. But yes, the TTSX expands more and in lower grains a great allround bullet. Have you hunted with the RWS in drive hunts?

 

[Top Spanish Hunting]

I’ve shot a fair amount of roe with Barnes lrx and they perform very well but I’ve heard the Sako blades are also very good.

have you tried the scirocco?

 

[Heym SR20]

we normally lung shot them here. in spain we hunt them a lot in plains and is usual to shoot them over 200 meters. But yes, the TTSX expands more and in lower grains a great allround bullet. Have you hunted with the RWS in drive hunts?

Yes but on boar. My experience of Roe with lung shots - even when I used lead is that the appear to show no reaction to shot and can run 50 to 100 yards before running out of blood pressure. Move shot placement a bit further forward and they drop.

With a lead bullet you ruin both shoulders.

With a monolithic you can eat right up to the bullet as there is usually very little bruising and meat damage.

Edit: on recollection I did once shoot a Roe on a driven hunt with an RWS ID Classic which is a lead partition bullet. Hit back of lungs. What a mess and the roe ran on with half its guts falling out. A quick second put it out of its misery.

I have also had experience with the Fox and Peregrine bullets.

 

[Top Spanish Hunting]

Yes but on boar. My experience of Roe with lung shots - even when I used lead is that the appear to show no reaction to shot and can run 50 to 100 yards before running out of blood pressure. Move shot placement a bit further forward and they drop.

With a lead bullet you ruin both shoulders.

With a monolithic you can eat right up to the bullet as there is usually very little bruising and meat damage.

Edit: on recollection I did once shoot a Roe on a driven hunt with an RWS ID Classic which is a lead partition bullet. Hit back of lungs. What a mess and the roe ran on with half its guts falling out. A quick second put it out of its misery.

I have also had experience with the Fox and Peregrine bullets.

Very similar experiences then!

 

[jp 7saum]

have you tried the scirocco?

no i haven't tried them yet, i've also not heard of them before, what brand are they?
there is a small company in the uk called yew tree and ive heard really good things about there bullets.

 

[Namman]

Yes but on boar. My experience of Roe with lung shots - even when I used lead is that the appear to show no reaction to shot and can run 50 to 100 yards before running out of blood pressure. Move shot placement a bit further forward and they drop.

With a lead bullet you ruin both shoulders.

With a monolithic you can eat right up to the bullet as there is usually very little bruising and meat damage.

Edit: on recollection I did once shoot a Roe on a driven hunt with an RWS ID Classic which is a lead partition bullet. Hit back of lungs. What a mess and the roe ran on with half its guts falling out. A quick second put it out of its misery.

I have also had experience with the Fox and Peregrine bullets.

"Eat right up to the bullet hole" ?
I used to believe that with big heavy large calibre bullets at low velocities. Wrong !
The question of carcase damage is frequently mentioned on this site but from my experience I would rather have more damage than a pencil hole and a lost animal.

 

[Ackers]

Very interesting subject. I have been shooting monolithic bullets for over 10 years now and was very much in the camp of "Lighter bullets pushed as fast as possible", to ensure full deformation at all hunting ranges. My experience when doing this is there is a lot of hydrostatic shock causing what I term "jellification", around the wound. Animals shot through the shoulders will normally write off most of the meat on them. I also spent a lot of time through lock-down trying to find bullet heads which would group as well as lead bullets. I eventually landed on a couple I deemed acceptable, around the half-inch grouping (Yewtree and Virtus Merlins). Yewtree mushroom and the Merlins break into three petals. I have settled with the Merlins because they give me a better margin of error if on occasion I take neck and head shots.

I then came across this podcast which sort of turns things on it's head.

I am continuing to use Virtus but now will look closely at the damage done on roe at 150-200 yrds to see the results of wound tracks and meat damage at slightly lower velocities.

Interestingly, I have a keeper friend who is getting some very good results on roe with his .270 using RWS Evolution Greens which are a tin derivative which fragment.

 

[Heym SR20]

"Eat right up to the bullet hole" ?
I used to believe that with big heavy large calibre bullets at low velocities. Wrong !
The question of carcase damage is frequently mentioned on this site but from my experience I would rather have more damage than a pencil hole and a lost animal.

Monolithics work by cutting a hole straight through the body. Its a bit like a 1 or 2” diameter plug cutter or circular saw and cutting straight through. The bullet stays in one piece and goes out the other side. So beyond the wound channel is very little meat damage.

A lead bullet expands rapidly in the first few inches leaving lots of lead fragments and blood shot meat, all of which should be disposed off.

 

[Namman]

Monolithics work by cutting a hole straight through the body. Its a bit like a 1 or 2” diameter plug cutter or circular saw and cutting straight through. The bullet stays in one piece and goes out the other side. So beyond the wound channel is very little meat damage.

A lead bullet expands rapidly in the first few inches leaving lots of lead fragments and blood shot meat, all of which should be disposed off.

Really? So what about hydrostatic shock?
So if there is very little meat damage, how is there enough internal damage to ensure a humane quick kill?
I like a good exit for a decent blood trail.
The less damage is done, the closer we are getting to fmj performance, which were made illegal for shooting deer for a very good reason.

 

[Ronin]

One really needs to research carefully the type of monolithic woth regards how they perform or are designed to perform once they are “on target”

LTS have come a very long way indeed in the last few years and fortunately many caught up with GS Custom level of performance ,,,,,

Most, with careful load development will deliver singke hole groups and impressive terminal ballistics

Do not expert zero meat damage

Gone are the days when some bullets pencilled through causing minimal hydrostatic shock

Some are designed to expand and retain the majority of the projectile

Others designed to shed petals (causing blood loss in organ/ vessels and a solid expanded core continues through the target

From my own experience and seeing many many deer on the ground from co stalkers - LTS work and perform well

The caveat being shot placement

 

[jthyttin]

Listened the podcast. The guy is contradicting himself (and physics) several times, and he has kind of decided what the results are and is coming up theory / observations that support the results. Or at least trying to explain a very complicated process with simple variable or two.

Like the energy thing. Let's say we have a bullet with 900m/s terminal velocity. Here's some figures for remaining energy at given exit speed:

- 100m/s 1.2%
- 200m/s 4.9%
- 300m/s 11%

That said, many points he makes sound believable.

 

[Selous]

Really? So what about hydrostatic shock?
So if there is very little meat damage, how is there enough internal damage to ensure a humane quick kill?
I like a good exit for a decent blood trail.
The less damage is done, the closer we are getting to fmj performance, which were made illegal for shooting deer for a very good reason.

Think of hydrostatic shock (whatever that may be) as being caused by a massive pressure wave. Where a bullet like the Barnes TTSX or Fox expands to many times greater diameter than calibre then the surface area available to retard velocity increases substantially very quickly and this increases the tissue velocity perpendicular to the direction of travel of the bullet which causes greater temporary cavitation. The same effect is seen with flat nosed solids compared to a pointed solid bullet. If you pick the right non lead bullet and get it to hit at the correct velocity then hydrostatic shock will occur quite nicely

 

[Bowland blades]

I have had great performance with barnes TTSX in the .260 rem , out to good ranges . !00 grain driven fast beats 120s ( though there should be no issues with the 120 inside 200 yards)
Had a little battle on with the 50 grain eCX from the 223 , ranges seem to need to come in a good bit compared with lead , 200 yard shots i would avoid . Changed to tTSX barenes in a 50 but that will have to be kept under 150 because on papper i seem to get two real close then one 1 1/2" off ! I suspect i need a faster twist ? It was on the cards from the get go i would go faster .
Some would say "so what thats still a dead deer " well it is on paper at modest ranges - However i like to know I have double the normal range i intend to shoot to- just in case something goes wrong or something really needs taking
I like copper bullets but you really have to test them in your rifle and know where the expansion or accuracy gets iffy!
Nobody holds vast knowledge of the brands, types and most important their functional individual limits

 

[Heym SR20]

Really? So what about hydrostatic shock?
So if there is very little meat damage, how is there enough internal damage to ensure a humane quick kill?
I like a good exit for a decent blood trail.
The less damage is done, the closer we are getting to fmj performance, which were made illegal for shooting deer for a very good reason.

As others have said. Firstly a monolithic opens into a flat spinning flower. There is a shock wave as ot goes through. Very much a flat ended boat pushing through the waves.

Secondly a copper flower spinning at high velocity will cut through any tissues, blood vessels into comes into contact with.

Because it retains all the bullet weight in retains sufficient energy to cut right the way through any animal. And no animal is going far with a 1 to 2” hole cut through the vitals.

Monolithics work differently to old lead bullets. There was a thought that you needed lots of energy and a big bullet in order to have enough of a bullet to reach the vitals.

A monolithic works much more like an arrow. Most bows (where impact energy is in the tens of foot pounds) will put an arrow clean through even large animals such as an elk. If you severe major blood vessels its going to die.

If you want to drop an animal immediately you need to impact the nervous system. Easiest way of doing that is a centre or high shoulder shot. But you need a bullet that will reliably penetrate the shoulder.

A blow to the CNS will not kill an animal. It will stun it. What kills is the loss of oxygenated blood to the major organs. Plenty have survived bullets wounds to the head if they get prompt medical attention. Ditto broken necks. It’s loss of oxygenated blood that kills.

 

[Top Spanish Hunting]

no i haven't tried them yet, i've also not heard of them before, what brand are they?
there is a small company in the uk called yew tree and ive heard really good things about there bullets.

remington mounts them and federal also. think also Sako, very intresting bullet.

 

[Top Spanish Hunting]

As others have said. Firstly a monolithic opens into a flat spinning flower. There is a shock wave as ot goes through. Very much a flat ended boat pushing through the waves.

Secondly a copper flower spinning at high velocity will cut through any tissues, blood vessels into comes into contact with.

Because it retains all the bullet weight in retains sufficient energy to cut right the way through any animal. And no animal is going far with a 1 to 2” hole cut through the vitals.

Monolithics work differently to old lead bullets. There was a thought that you needed lots of energy and a big bullet in order to have enough of a bullet to reach the vitals.

A monolithic works much more like an arrow. Most bows (where impact energy is in the tens of foot pounds) will put an arrow clean through even large animals such as an elk. If you severe major blood vessels its going to die.

If you want to drop an animal immediately you need to impact the nervous system. Easiest way of doing that is a centre or high shoulder shot. But you need a bullet that will reliably penetrate the shoulder.

A blow to the CNS will not kill an animal. It will stun it. What kills is the loss of oxygenated blood to the major organs. Plenty have survived bullets wounds to the head if they get prompt medical attention. Ditto broken necks. It’s loss of oxygenated blood that kills.

I see that you give a lot of importance to the issue of muscle damage for the use of meat. I understand it with the roe deer because they are small and everything is used. Here in Spain we hunt a lot of mountain deer, they are 200-250kg animals that are very hard to hunt. Accustomed to climbing the mountain and escaping from the wolves, they have a lot of strength. The best thing is to throw them around the neck but many clients do not have that confidence.

They have more meat than two people can carry and the issue of damaging part of it with one shot is not worrying. They are also usually hunted in places where you cannot access by car. We have hunted some with calibers like 308 but there we use monolithic and instead of 130 grains maybe 150 or so to ensure good penetration and reach the vitals. In the end, the best use of a monolithic bullet is to allow you to hunt animals at the maximum limit of the caliber you use, with all the advantages that this entails, mainly better shot placement due to less recoil.

 

[Heym SR20]

I see that you give a lot of importance to the issue of muscle damage for the use of meat. I understand it with the roe deer because they are small and everything is used. Here in Spain we hunt a lot of mountain deer, they are 200-250kg animals that are very hard to hunt. Accustomed to climbing the mountain and escaping from the wolves, they have a lot of strength. The best thing is to throw them around the neck but many clients do not have that confidence.

They have more meat than two people can carry and the issue of damaging part of it with one shot is not worrying. They are also usually hunted in places where you cannot access by car. We have hunted some with calibers like 308 but there we use monolithic and instead of 130 grains maybe 150 or so to ensure good penetration and reach the vitals. In the end, the best use of a monolithic bullet is to allow you to hunt animals at the maximum limit of the caliber you use, with all the advantages that this entails, mainly better shot placement due to less recoil.

Looks a fantastic place to hunt and a wonderful dog. Meat damage in the UK matters to many as a lot of deer are sold to game dealers who dramatically reduce price paid for a deer if there is meat damage.

And from a purely selfish point of view I don’t like waisting meat, especially if I have used an expensive monolithic bullet. A shoulder of a Roe deer is a venison Biryani for my family of 3. I use 7x57 with 130gn Fox, 7x65r with 140gn HIT and for Roe I am increasingly using a 51gn Peregrine in 223.